Reach & Retain Strategies (Part 4)
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It’s an oft-overlooked but crucial aspect of retention: engaging people in their calling.
For this final episode of our series called “Reach & Retain Strategies,” I had a conversation with Noah Herrin, lead pastor of Way Church in Nashville, who shares insights from the remarkable journey of growing a church plant to 800 people in just 16 months while primarily reaching Gen Z and Millennials.
Noah shares how Way Church is addressing the crisis of meaning and purpose among younger generations through intentional community building and helping people discover their unique contributions to the church’s mission.
Listen in to discover:
- How to create an environment where people can easily discover and use their spiritual gifts
- Practical strategies for engaging Gen Z and Millennials in church ministry
- The importance of intentional community building in retention
- Fresh approaches to digital ministry and social media engagement
- Ways to remove barriers and create flexible opportunities for service
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Transcript
Sean:
Before we start this week’s episode, I want to thank our podcast sponsor, The Church Lawyers. The Church Lawyers Client Membership program was created for organizations just like yours. Their team of legal professionals are personally called to empower and protect churches, ministries and their leaders to fulfill their mission by providing biblically informed and ministry-focused legal solutions. Whether governance, employment, litigation or other matters, let The Church Lawyers walk alongside you as you navigate legal issues facing your ministry. Sign up for The Church Lawyers Client Member program today at thechurchlawyers.com. That’s the T-H-E church lawyers dot com.
Well, welcome back to the Unstuck Church podcast. I’m Sean here with my teammate Amy Anderson. And this week, Amy, we’re wrapping up our series where we’ve been talking about strategies churches use to reach and retain more people.
Amy:
Yeah. I have loved this series, Sean, as well as the webinar we hosted a few weeks back. I really think there’s been a takeaway for every church leader that’s been tuning in, and I just hope it’s spurred leaders on to evaluate their current strategies and try some new things. And what I love about this podcast is the opportunity to share the best practices we see as we serve churches every week.
Sean:
Yep. I love that. And speaking of that, Amy, I don’t think we shared this a few months ago, but we’ve now have served over 700 churches. 700 churches actually on the ground serving them. This does not include the churches we’ve been coaching. The churches included in cohorts. Like on the ground, served over 700 churches, and I was actually on the ground with the Table Church in Oakdale, Pennsylvania, so the Pittsburgh area. And they were our 700th church. Great church, change in leadership in the last year or so, they’ve had to undergo some significant changes in their church and right now they’re working on their multi-site strategy, but man, do they have a great runway ahead of them. Really excited for them. But yep. That, that engagement was our beginning of our 700th church. Really, really fun for us.
Amy:
Yeah. I’m actually heading there next month to work with them, so I should probably bring them an award or something. Or a trophy. Do we have any of those?
Sean:
Them, I dunno. Maybe some kind of plaque or something that they can’t do anything with that, but Yeah.
Amy:
Yeah. And what’s amazing, like you said about that number is it doesn’t include the hundreds of churches that we’ve worked with through our numerous cohorts over the years and things like that. It represents churches engaged in the full Unstuck Process. And, it’s funny because when I joined the team in 2015, our founder and friend Tony Morgan, he was celebrating the fact that we had just served our 100th church. I remember that like it was yesterday. And he was honestly just blown away by that number. And he was so grateful, the opportunity God’s given us to help pastors lead unstuck churches. He would joke, you know, I could make more money if I did this myself, but I wouldn’t serve, we wouldn’t get to serve as many churches, and I wouldn’t get to do it alongside good friends, so. Man, we’re thankful for that. And thankful thank you to our listeners who have engaged with us. We’re so thankful for you, and we’re so inspired by you all. Every church just leaves a little bit of residue. Sounds bad. So I don’t mean it that way, but we don’t leave the same way.
Sean:
They mark us, right?
Amy:
They mark us, and they become part of the story, and they become part of the way that we can help even more churches. So that’s exciting. 700.
Sean:
Absolutely. The number of churches I worked with four or five, six years ago that I could still remember today. Still remember the pastor, still tell their story and still have a great conversation when we connect again. They are all very important to us.
Amy:
It’s an honor.
Sean:
Well, as I said, we’re wrapping up this series today, and we hope, especially with Easter coming up in a few weeks, we hope we’ve provided you with some ways that you can maximize that opportunity for your church to be more effective in reaching and retaining people in your mission field. And today we get to hear from Noah Herrin. Amy, can you tell us a little bit about Noah?
Amy:
Yeah, absolutely. Noah Herrin, he is the lead pastor of Way Church in Nashville. He and his wife, Maddy, along with a few friends, planted the church just in September of 2023. So a year and a half ago. And over the past 16, 17 months, the church has grown to over 800 people. And I know, and what’s unique about his church though, is that as a young leader himself, they are primarily reaching Gen Z and millennials in Nashville. In fact, one of our former interns went to that church and she got that church on our radar. So I just, I sat down with him to hear his perspectives. ’cause I think he’s got a unique view on how they’re helping these mostly 20-somethings kind of find their purpose, help them to engage in ministry. And so, I’m gonna share this interview and then I think coming out of what we can share a couple of the takeaways from it. So here’s my interview with Noah.
Amy:
Well, we are in a podcast series on strategies for churches to reach new people and to actually retain them. And one area we see churches neglecting kind of as a general rule is actually helping people get engaged in their calling. We think church leaders should be asking the questions like, are we creating enough space for people to use their gifts here? What’s your reaction to that question?
Noah:
I have a long-winded answer that I’ll try to make short, but I think about that all the time just because I was, a part of a ministry prior to us starting Way Church. I led a college ministry for about five years before being a full-time evangelist. And we just, we had such a high turnover, rate of, as far as like, we’d see people accept Christ every week, and they would be really engaged for a certain amount of time. And then, you know, they would kind of leave. And I just, it broke my heart for a bunch of different reasons, but when we got to Nashville, we spent a lot of time just praying, like, how can we minimize that as much as possible? Like, how can we, keep the front door wide, but shut the back door?
And, I really think if you look at like, every church that preaches the Bible, believes the Bible, has sound theology. There’s kind of like three major components. There’s like the Jesus component; there’s the community component. And there’s the mission component, and different churches call them different things. But really there’s kind of those three lanes. And when I was growing up and in the churches that I was a part of, they’re amazing churches. The focus was typically on the Jesus and the mission, right? And it was like if we can get people to buy into our mission, then they’ll stay.
And, I think with Gen Z and millennials in particular, which is what most of our church is made up of right now. We’re praying that, that will change some and we’ll have some more, we call ’em chronologically, superior saints. We need some spiritual moms and dads at our church. But, I really feel like with the younger generation like they’re craving community so deeply. That, what we are trying to do is really focus more on the community aspect because we feel like if we can get people into genuinely deep community, then they’ll stick around and they’ll be more open to our mission. They’ll be more open to Jesus. You know, there’s so many Gen Z and millennials here, especially in Nashville, who, they would just say, Hey, I’m not interested in a conversation around Jesus. But what we found is if they can find community and see that people really care about them, no strings attached, they’re much more open to a conversation about faith.
And so that’s the strategy that we’re going. I’m sure that there’s. I mean, there is a million ways to go about it, right? Different churches, there is see different things work all over the place, but that’s the strategy that we’ve been kind of deploying, and we’re really seeing a high percentage of our people, stick around. In fact, I was just looking at photos from our first vision night that we had, which was nine months before we started the church. And there were about, 90 people who showed up to hear about our church that day. And out of those 90 people, there were eight of them that were there who joined. I mean, there were more than eight that joined the team, but there’s eight in these photos that are now a part of our church and serving at the highest capacity that you can serve at our church. They’re like some of our core leaders, and they were at that first vision night. And so they’ve stuck, you know, two and a half years, through this journey with us, and they’re just all in. And so, I’ll take that every time.
Amy:
So maybe related to what I was asking, you know, how are we getting people engaged in their calling? What I heard you say. Okay, wide front door so anybody can come, hopefully they feel comfortable and accepted, and then get them into community. And really what you just described is through community is where they started to find their calling.
Noah:
For sure.
Amy:
But it was community first and that piece second. That makes a lot of sense, for sure. Here’s another question for you. You know, there’s been a lot written about the current cultural crisis of like meaning and purpose, and that’s clearly affecting Gen Z in many ways. Can you share any stories of how you’re seeing young people respond to the purpose found in the gospel through your church?
Noah:
Yeah. I mean, I think the moment somebody is a part of changing someone else’s life. Like when they actually have a hand at play, that just makes it so much more meaningful to them. And so something that we’re really trying to communicate, as good as we can, is like, Hey, this calling is not the pastor’s calling only. Like, this is your calling. Like you’re called to not just receive the gospel, you’re called to share the gospel. So, you know, our vision, and we say this almost every single week, is we wanna see more people accept Christ through our small groups than through our gatherings, through like one-on-one conversations.
And so, yeah. I mean, we had a guy in a small group, season one of our church, which was just the first we do seasons, which last about four months. So the first four months of our church, this guy got in a small group and we were in a series where I was challenging everyone to share their faith. He didn’t wanna share his faith. He didn’t really feel comfortable doing that. So he just invited his coworker with him to a small group. And his coworker is not a follower of Jesus. Literally a former cocaine addict, like legitimately. Like serious former addict like still in recovery and trying to fight through. It starts coming to these groups, starts having a great time. I’m getting text messages from the group leader saying, “There’s this guy here. He drops an F-bomb every once in a while, but, he seems to be having a great time. I think like the Lord’s doing something in his life.”
Long story short, that guy, the cocaine addict, gave his life to Christ in the small group, and he now is over one of our service’s entire security and safety team. He’s an amazing dude. His name’s Anthony, and the guy who invited him to our church that put a spark under him. The guy who invited him to small group, like he didn’t actually, you know, get to share the gospel with him personally, but he was the one who got him to the small group. And that has really propelled that their entire small group to be like, Hey, like, we can do this. Like, look what God did in our friend’s life. Let’s keep doing this. And so I think it just, it takes, like, all it takes is one time you getting to be a small part of someone else’s life being changed forever for you to go, “Hey, like this gospel thing. I knew it worked in my life, but it can work in other people’s lives. And like, I have a part to play.”
Amy:
And how great, just the usage of both the weekend service and the small group community to provide safe places in both places for people outside the faith to come in and have a chance to hear the gospel.
Noah:
Yeah.
Amy:
Yeah. Can you share some specific ways your team is helping people engage their calling at the way church?
Noah:
Yeah. So, man, I keep going back to community ’cause we really do care so much about it.
Amy:
Sure, yeah.
Noah:
But, our way, we call ’em way groups, our small groups, the way that we have ’em structured is it’s 10 weeks on and then six weeks off. So there’s a 10 weeks season we call it, and then a six week off season. And we really intentionally like schedule the content of those 10 weeks to try and do two main things. The first one is like, get the group to grow closer together in community, like that’s the first thing. And then the second thing is to get them to go from a spectator to a participator in what God’s doing in our city.
And so, week one is really about building trust. It’s like a big potluck. Everybody brings food. And people are kind of sharing their current dream and their current struggle. We do some of that on that night, and there’s just some vulnerability and stuff like that. And then, we spend a few of the 10 weeks around specific content that aligns with the sermon, but we do,two out of the 10 weeks, we do something called a missionary mindset week. Where we put away the Bible, which sounds crazy, but we put away the Bible. And the one thing that you have to do is you have to invite someone who either isn’t a part of our church or someone who isn’t a follower of Jesus. And these groups, they get to decide what they’re gonna do on that week. But like we might have one group go to the park and play pickleball or play volleyball. Another group might have a game night at somebody’s house, but you’re just inviting people into community.
Amy:
So good.
Noah:
And it’s not like this bait and switch. It’s not like everybody gets there and the group leader’s like, here’s the gospel, repent right now. Like, it’s not that. We hope that they will eventually, but it’s really just like, again, can we scratch that itch of almost creating a place where we’re thrusting the people in groups to just do one small piece of their calling, which is to be someone who shares the gospel, to be someone who shares their faith, to be someone who’s a friend of sinners like Jesus. And so, that’s like a way we’re trying to kind of force people to go and just create environments to do it.
And then I would say in those groups, you know, we’re creating these discussion questions really in a way that hopefully gets people to talk, from week to week. That’s not just about like, this is what Pastor Noah said and here’s some more notes to take.
Amy:
So, there’s not like a fill-in-the-blank they go through, as they are talking through it.
Noah:
Yeah. I mean, not really. We want them to contextualize it to what’s going on in their world. So a lot of the questions are like, “Hey, this week we preached about forgiveness, and there’s different people, you know, there’s a music producer in this room, and there’s a teacher in this room, and who do you need to forgive this week?” It’s really like trying to contextualize it so that they can talk about it, and it can become part of their own story.
Amy:
Yeah. Well, it’s kind of like, you know, what really great preachers do is they explain the Bible in a way that it applies to people’s life. And what I’m hearing you say is in the community groups and the Way groups, you’re not doing theology as much as you are how do you respond to what you’ve been, what you’ve heard. What you’ve learned. That’s great.
What are some ways we, we have a broad group of pastors that listen every week, and you are an anomaly probably in many of their worlds, where you’re like, we need some older people. You know, a lot of churches are like, we need to change our ways so that we can reach this next generation. And you’re doing that. So what are some ways you think churches could be better engaging Gen Z to leverage their gifts for the kingdom? Where do you see the opportunity?
Noah:
Yeah, I think like, you know, for something that we, something we were told when we were about to start was, your church is gonna look a lot like you demographic wise. And I think that that, you know, in general, if you’re a 50-year-old pastor, like you’re gonna attract people 10 years younger, 10 years older, just in general. And that’s amazing. You know, I think we all should want all generations represented at our church. And so, I just wanna lead with like, we’re probably gonna have an easier time because I, you know, I still struggle to grow a mustache, so younger people are gonna just gravitate, I think, towards our church.
But, something that I’ve really seen in the next generation is they don’t need an older pastor to try to be like them as much as they need an older pastor who is genuine. Authenticity is such a buzzword with the next generation. If they feel like you’re trying to be something that you are not or the church is trying to be something that it’s not, it’s just an automatic no for them. And so you can just free yourself of the pressure of, you know, I’ve gotta wear a certain type of clothes, or I’ve gotta preach a certain type of way. That’s not really what they’re looking for, but they do want to receive something that they don’t have from you.
And so, you know, I think that a misconception about Gen Z and millennials is that they don’t want things to be too hard. You know? So like, let’s, let’s not ask a lot of them. Let’s not move too quickly because, you know, they might not have the commitment inside of them to stick around for that. If we do that, I would push back on that really hard. And say, if you’re preaching the word and you’re doing your best for community, I say push hard on the challenge because they want to be challenged. Nobody else is challenging them. They’re not being challenged in the workplace a lot of the times. They’re not being challenged, you know, in one-on-one relationships. Like I really feel like even in the friendship dynamic, Gen Z and millennials just tend to be a little bit more afraid to hurt one another’s feelings than other generations. And so they’re craving someone to just go, Hey, this is where you are. This is where you could be. Let’s get there. Like let’s go there. Like, let’s drop the former self. Let’s pursue the Lord fully.
Just a quick example of this would be, we came this close to losing a couple at our church about five months in that I would consider some of the best leaders at our church—young couple, a couple that we could not afford to lose in more than one way. And it was over just a standard that we were trying to keep that they weren’t keeping. And it wasn’t because they couldn’t keep the standard. It’s just they weren’t. And, I really did not want to talk to them. I did not want to address it. I was like, what if I, what if I come across too strong and they’d bounce, you know? And we had this really difficult two-hour conversation where when they left our house, I was like, they’re gone. Like, there’s no way. Like I just told ’em the truth and told ’em that, you know, some of these things are, are not Jesus-like; they’re not representing our church, and we gotta fix ’em. And it just didn’t feel like it was received. Well, long story short, about two weeks later we had another conversation where they came to me in tears and said that they didn’t know how, I didn’t know how badly they needed to hear those things.
Amy:
Oh, yeah.
Noah:
And that no one had ever said that to them. And I’m not sharing the story to, I hate sharing stories where it makes, you know, I’m the hero of the story. I’m not; I was terrified. My wife, I had to talk me off the ledge. But those, that couple is now, I mean they’re just invaluable at our church. And our relationship is, it could not be tighter.
Amy:
Wow.
Noah:
And I just think like the misconception is that we’ve gotta coddle Gen Z and millennials When really they’re just looking for people to tell ’em the truth, to call them higher because they want to reach their own potential as a follower of Jesus, in the workplace, as a parent. It’s just a lot of them don’t have someone that is willing to challenge them but also stick with them to see them fulfill what God has for their life.
Amy:
That’s really good. Let me ask a question just a little bit different way. So, because your church is made up of Gen, I always say it wrong, Gen Z and millennials, they’re probably engaged all over your church if you have that many people coming. I know that you have a very small staff, at least based on the interview I listened to with you and Carey Nieuwhof. So you’ve got them engaged across the spectrum. Again, if you just think about maybe the average church right now, and when I say average growth, I actually mean a lot of our churches are pretty healthy, but they are trying to do some intentional things to engage that age group in the ministry of the church. Any advice you’d give for where to start or how to think about, you know, moving them into spaces where they are now fully engaged in, in ministry, volunteering, volunteer leadership?
Noah:
Yeah. I always start with serving on Sundays just ’cause I think that that’s something that most people can do. So we really push that, just practically, like I don’t want to get too much into the weeds unless you want me to, but like we do something every Sunday that we call Way Track.
Amy:
Okay.
Noah:
It’s just a version of a growth track or membership class. And we’ve made that something that’s one week long instead of multiple. It’s about a 45-minute thing that’s led by different people on our team each week, but almost every Sunday I’m pushing like, “Hey, if you want to get the most out of our church, serve our church. If you want to get the most out of what we have to offer, like join the team and stick with it for six months. And if you hate it, stop after that. But it’s gonna take about that long to really get the most out of what we have to offer here.”And then, we’ve made the barrier to entry really small because we think that just gives us the best chance of someone actually giving it a shot. So that’s something that we do. I think the other thing is they’re on social media. And you don’t have to have the best social media in the game. I would just say like, I see so many churches who use social media almost like a digital bulletin.
Amy:
Yes.
Noah:
Where it’s like, “Hey, this is when our class is and this is when our service is,” like, we know when services we’ve been coming for six months, you know, we know what time it starts.
You don’t have to post it every Saturday, like, but I think like a way that we’re seeing and we see at least 15 first time guests a Sunday. And I would say a conservative guess would be 75% of ’em hear about our church from social media. And the approach that we’ve taken is we either want it to create FOMO, so like fear of missing out, like, oh man, like that just looks amazing, like I need community like that. Or we want it to be helpful to people who are already Christians. So if it’s not one of those two things, we’re not gonna post it.
So an example of something helpful would be like, maybe it’s a sermon clip, but maybe it’s a swipe through that’s just like, “Hey, four red flags for dating relationships.” Okay. All the single people. That’s something that’s helpful to me. Maybe it’s a 60-second clip of a breakdown from the past Sundays message and it’s just going a little bit deeper in something. But it’s like, I’m, I’m getting something out of this during the week instead of just seeing stuff about what’s happening next at the church. And so I think that’s like really low-hanging fruit for people to just engage young people that are already a part of their church throughout the week but also possibly reach young people who aren’t in their church throughout the week.
Sean:
Well, Amy, that’s a great introduction for Noah with all of our listeners. And some of the other church world. Wonder what stood out to you from that conversation.
Amy:
It’ll be interesting to see where he and his church are at in the years to come. It’ll be fun to follow just being 18 months old. Well, first I believe I have a new title now. I am a chronologically superior saint. So if you could refer, you can start calling me that, Sean.
Sean:
I’m not sure if I could say all that very clearly.
Amy:
I’ll help you.
Sean:
Thank you.
Amy:
Chronologically superior. That’s hilarious. Well, what stood out? Well, first you heard his deep passion around creating community and addressing the issue of loneliness for this generation. And just as an aside, I would argue, like since COVID, that’s expanded to a lot of generations. But specific to Way Church and Noah’s passion, you can see how they lead with community. Whatever question I asked, it always came back to connecting people to people. And I think it’s through those connections that people at way church find faith, purpose and meaning. And I would argue that’s probably why their back door seems very narrow. So yeah, that was probably my first takeaway.
The second though, and it’s related, but was their intentionality with the way groups. I can’t remember if he said this while we were recording or once we finished, but I love how they leveraged their small group questions to provoke deeper relationships. So instead of like, fill-in-the-blank theology questions, they’re more personal, like, how have you seen this? Whatever the principle is play out in your life or with what Jesus has just said, will you share a moment in your life where that weakness actually led to a strength? Their group sessions are just guided so well, and they’re diverse. They’re not just gathering in homes. They’re in public spaces in Nashville with non-Way friends, so I just thought there were some new things to consider about how they’re approaching groups.
And the third was probably Noah’s thoughts on engaging this generation to serve within the social media team. I mean, of course, right? They are native to this landscape.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
And we often talk about wanting to engage them in serving roles, but if you wanna reach this generation, I encourage our listeners to gather a group of Gen Zers and have them audit your social media channels. I bet they would have a lot to say about that. There’s just a lot of fresh, innovative ideas to leverage digital strategy to reach more people. And I think Noah said their approach with social media is to either create FOMO, fear of missing out, or to provide helpful content that whoever watches it will get something out of it. And if it doesn’t do one of those two things, they don’t post it. And that’s an intentional, strategic digital strategy. And we’ve said it before, but putting, you know, our services online should not be coined your digital strategy. It’s a piece of it, but not the whole.
And lastly, just 800 people in 18 months for services, four full services, starting a fifth, they need another building. These are great problems. But they are challenges in these stages of growth, and if not addressed, they’ll get stuck. So I’m praying with him that they’re gonna find their building. By the way, they’re also having a third baby on the way, so.
Sean:
Oh my goodness.
Amy:
Noah, you hang in there. We’re excited for your church, and we’re excited for the ministry and appreciate the things that he brought forward today.
Sean:
Yeah. Make sure you get some sleep too, Noah. Goodness. Busy. Alright, Amy, well this series has been really great. I’ve really enjoyed it. I hope listeners have gotten a lot out of it. As we wrap up today’s episode and this series, any final thoughts from you?
Amy:
You know, I’ll probably just double down on what I said last week. If you don’t know your data, I really wanna encourage you to access our Vital Signs assessment. It’s for free. We’ve got a code for you to use for that. But again, it’s got benchmarks in there that you can not only see your results but how you’re comparing, and it gives you a much more robust look at the overall health of your church because we cover over 15 areas that will help with that. So I encourage you to do that and continue to take a look at what your data’s telling you then because there are probably areas in there you can have some fun toying with, flexing a little bit, doing some R & D (research and development) to make this next run of ministry just that much more successful.
Sean:
Yeah, absolutely. And to get access to our free Vital Signs assessment, just go to our website, theunstuckgroup.com, at the top, click the button that says Learning Hub and sign up for the Learning Hub. And at checkout, make sure you use the code: 1monthfreelearninghub. That’s the number one month free Learning Hub at checkout, and you’ll get access for one month for free. You can run our Vital Signs assessment and get your full data report.
That’s the end of this series for us, Amy. Next week we start a brand-new series called The Money Series. Do you like that title? It’s to the point.
Amy:
Very original.
Sean:
It’s very simple. It’s The Money Series and guess what it’s on?
Amy:
Money.
Sean:
It’s about Money. So, we hope that you’ll return next week after Amy and i’s silly banter and laughter that you’ve made it through that and you’re back next week as we kick off The Money Series. Until then, we hope you all have a great week.
