Weekend Quality Check (Part 3)
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How do you teach in a way that engages insiders without alienating the outsiders? How do you develop teachings that are relevant, relatable, and truly transformational?
Sean and I address these common questions and more in Part 3 of our series, “Weekend Quality Check.”
In this episode, we dig into the core tensions pastors face in developing transformational messages that engage both insiders and outsiders, sharing practical solutions to navigate that tension of preparing messages as well. We also host Pastor Carlos Ortiz from Gateway Church in Austin, Texas, who shares valuable insights about how he develops teachings that transform.
DEVELOPING TRANSFORMATIONAL TEACHING
- Questions pastors wrestle with—whether they say it out loud or not.
- Navigating the tension of preparing messages that engage both insiders and outsiders.
- Insights from Pastor Carlos Ortiz from Gateway Church in Austin, TX.
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More Episodes in This Series
- How Prepared is Your Church for Guests? – Episode 368
- Better Sermon Series Planning – Episode 369
- Evaluating Effectiveness – Episode 371
- Evaluating Your Online Service Experience – Episode 372
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Transcript
Sean:
This week’s podcast is sponsored by Plain Joe, a Storyland Studio. Unleash the power of your church’s story with Plain Joe. Their creative, fun-loving team of designers, architects, and specialists will come alongside your church to help you excel in your storytelling and reach the people who need you most. Plain Joe has expertise in strategic, spatial and digital storytelling, from brand development to architecture, website design and beyond. Learn more at plainjoe.net.
Well, welcome to the Unstuck Church Podcast. I’m Sean, and I’m here, of course, with Amy Anderson. Amy, we’ve had an incredibly busy last couple of weeks. Last few weeks.
Amy:
Yep.
Sean:
I just wonder, have you had any highlights recently as you’ve been working with pastors and ministry leaders?
Amy:
Yeah, I think one of my biggest highlights, were the quarterly calls we got done with our active cohorts. So we’ve been running for the past 18 months, executive pastor and multi-site cohorts. And one of the executive pastor calls was with our, it was their final call. In other words, we’ve been walking with them for 12 months through just how to be a great executive pastor. And it was so fun, Sean.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
I mean, they were like, one church said, we have added another service. Another one said, we launched our third campus. They were all talking about how much they’re growing and their biggest challenges right now are just adapting to that growth, 33% growth. And then we also had our multi-site cohort. And again, it was just like that one. All these churches are growing. One had launched their third location, another one is on pace to launch their fourth location in January. Another church launched a location in Honduras. All that to say it is so fun to walk alongside those churches and as they just apply the things they’re learning, not only from the content that we’ve created, but also learning from one another; it’s been great. And in fact, we’ve talked about Athens Church before, but Tony and I served at that church I think four or five years ago. It was before the pandemic. And anyways, we’ve connect, stayed connected and helped them along the way for their first launch. And just a few weeks ago, they had the most successful launch of their second campus in downtown Athens. We’re just so proud of ’em. So, you know, as I say that, you know, to our listeners, if you are growing and you’re looking, you know, what are we gonna do in 2025? We’re gonna open up four more cohorts. And so whether it’s the executive pastor or if you are thinking about multi-site, you are, we would encourage you, we have waiting lists right now that are on our website. You can go to theunstuckgroup.com/cohorts and you can be kind of the first to know when those new dates get put out there and how to sign up.
Sean:
Absolutely. We’d love to have you guys join us. It’s gonna be fun in 2025 to go through that and meet and work with some other churches. So, yeah. before we dive into the content today, I just wanna remind everybody listening about our show notes and our leader conversation guide. So, especially if you’re brand new to the podcast, you don’t wanna miss the free resources that we’re creating each week to support that week’s episode. So if you’d like to get access to that, just go to theunstuck group.com/podcast and subscribe. Alright. So in this series, we’re sharing some practical ways that you can really up the quality of your weekend planning, preparation, and execution. And Amy, in last week’s episode, we focused on sermon series planning. So if listeners miss that, be sure to go back and take a listen to last week’s episode. We’ll use that kind of as a springboard for today. Since this week, we’re gonna go a little bit more granular in how we’re talking specifically about teaching.
Amy:
Yeah. Sean, this one is really for the lead pastors out there and the members of the teaching team. And we’re gonna talk about teaching for transformation. And by the way, I am sure most of our listeners do this very well. Today, however, I just wanna encourage everyone who’s listening to have an open heart and an open mind, and really do a self-assessment on your teaching, because I believe there’s always a nugget or two in discussions like these that can help all of us get a little bit better at teaching. And it may come, you know, Sean, from what you and I are talking about today, or it may come from the interview you did with Pastor Carlos Ortiz at Gateway Church in Austin, who is just a dynamic teacher.
Sean:
Absolutely. Okay. So let’s dive into the topic. When it comes to teaching in a way that leads to transformation, what’s the question that you find Amy pastors are wrestling with often, whether maybe they would say it out loud or not?
Amy:
Yeah, I think, I think the big question, the first question that comes to mind that they’re wrestling with is, how do I teach this? You know, whatever God has laid on their heart, how do I teach this in a way that engages outsiders without alienating the insiders or vice versa? How do I teach insiders without alienating the outsiders and I think the easy road here, I think our teachers would say this is to pick one or the other. Right? And I think when we’re, maybe a little lazy, we go one direction or the other, you can go the mile wide inch deep, you know, too topical, we just pick and choose scripture, but we’re really just talking to that outsider, or we go the other extreme, just like verse by verse, expository teaching. We get into context, which I think is a good thing
Sean:
Sure.
Amy:
But it’s to sometimes the exclusion of what someone who’s not familiar with the Bible would actually understand. But I, I think high quality teaching can do both. You know, I’ll go back, Sean, I just mentioned about Athens Church, I can still remember, and again, four or five years ago, the teaching from when I secret shop there, it was a series on how technology can hurt you, relationally, physically, mentally, and spiritually. And that message was so compelling and helpful, honestly, regarding wherever I was on my spiritual journey.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
It was helpful to the not convinced, and it was helpful to us who us who have been following Jesus for many, many years. And so that’s the tension, right? All truth is God’s truth. And when we present it in a way that’s helpful, relatable, and relevant, it can reach both believers and unbelievers. But I believe that’s one of the big tensions.
How do I do that? And by the way, that type of teaching, what is, what makes a church so invite-able when things are understandable like that in our voice to both groups. But I think the second tension is when teaching starts to drift in quality and everything drifts, unless we’re really intentional about it. But I’ve seen some drifting over time in the length of the message or it starts to drift back to being more informational than transformational. And I think that’s a danger because all of us, whether we don’t believe yet, or we’re believers, we are all consumers. And I think we are always evaluating, is this still worth my time? Is this still worth my time to invest every Sunday morning? So those are the top two that come to mind. Anything that you would add to that, Sean?
Sean:
Yeah, I think just to add this more in thinking more broadly, we often see that as churches are experiencing momentum and growth, and we talked about this a little bit last week, but the tendency is to begin to focus more on those people who are at your church now, maybe some of the newer people who have come to your church, but all of these people, as we experience momentum that are at our church, and then lose some of that focus on the people who are outside of the church, and we’re not considering those new people who are just checking out our church for the first time. And that focus on those people is actually a big part of what caused that momentum.
Amy:
Yeah.
Sean:
And growth for our church. And so this is actually how we see, when we think about the church lifecycle momentum, church growth, churches start to get stuck. They feel like they’re on this trajectory to sustain health, but what the tendency of what happens is they focus on those that are already there now a part of the church, rather than maintaining that focus on people who aren’t a part of the church and faith yet.
Amy:
That is so funny that you share that, Sean, because I, and I’ve shared this example before, but we were a growing church at Eagle Brook. We grew 20% year over year, and when we moved our church to a new location, we grew 40% that year. Which is just huge numbers to think about. But I remember that next year we were a bit flatlined, and while most of us were just focusing on all those people that had joined our church, it was our lead pastor and then our exec team that said, Hey, but if we’re not growing, if we aren’t reaching the next batch of new people, we have to continue to do the both and to both reach and disciple.
Sean:
That’s right.
Amy:
So, you’re absolutely right. Big churches that are growing can slide into this as well.
Sean:
Yeah, that’s right. Okay. So let’s get practical with this. What are some of the ways that you would coach pastors to navigate the tension of preparing messages that can engage both insiders and outsiders?
Amy:
Well, there are, when I think about a really helpful teaching for both insiders and outsiders, here’s the four areas that I think every, every teacher needs to keep their eye on. The first one is stories and illustrations. And I often say the win for this area as you, you know, reflect on what you’ve prepared to teach or after you’ve taught it, is, did the message include well placed stories, illustrations, and or humor that made the content and communicator more relatable? To me, that’s gonna be important for both insiders and outsiders because it makes you seem like you’re a real person, you’re trustworthy. Well, I guess how good, however good the story is, but a good story, a good illustration, especially at the top of a service when we’re starting the message, helps build some trust and engagement with those listeners.
The second area that I think you have to keep your eye on is practical content. And so the win for me is, you know, was that message biblically based and was it presented in a way that was relevant to my everyday life? So this gets into, you know, how important it’s that we use language that’s easy to understand that it helps me connect my modern life to the, to the concept that the Bible was trying to teach us. Right?
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
Did they provide scripture? Did they, I remember one great pastor what he missed the opportunity was he would just throw out Bible characters left and right. I had no idea who they were. So I’d rather hear about less people. But help me understand who you are talking about as you’re teaching from the scriptures.
The third one, man, the headline here, it keep your eye on relevant application. So the win for me with relevant application is it, it’s a little bit like the content one, but did the teaching actually apply to my life? Did it identify clear next steps and did it want me to return? This is the tension I see sometimes with trying to voice to insiders and outsiders, is that relevant application, if you’re not careful, often starts to apply to one or the other groups. And so the discipline here is to go, how do we help the application apply to the majority of the room? I’ll give an example of this.
My husband was teaching on stewardship and generosity a few weeks ago. And at the end of the message, the challenge, he broke it out into two groups of people. So he said, there are some of you that aren’t giving to church at all right now. And he talked about how your next step is to make that advanced decision and begin to give and to, you know, test God in this area. And then he spoke to the others of us. And some of you have been tithing for years, and here’s your challenge. And it was about really taking a next step in, going above and beyond that and being generous in our community.
And sometimes, Sean, the biggest challenge I see in this area is that we assume the next steps are pretty clear when they really aren’t. And so, landing that message well, just like a plane needs to land well, we need to land the message well, with better clarity around the next steps that we want them to do.
Sean:
Yeah.
Amy:
And then the fourth area that you really have to keep your eye on is in the engagement area. And the win here is just, was the delivery of the message, authentic, understandable, and this phrase continuously engaging. You know, we all know this. We all sat under professors, you know, we’ve been in teaching environments other than the weekend service. And the longer a person talks, the less energy that is there.
Sean:
That’s true.
Amy:
So we have to be continuously engaging and find ways to bring that breath and, and cause people to lean in again, because if you’re gonna teach for 35 minutes, we need to reinsert energy. And, you know, both of us are both a big fan of kind of helping people, helping teachers release their message to some other people in advance. If you’re on that team, help us go through those four questions. Right? Did we use stories? Was the content practical? Did it apply? Was it relevant to my life? And was it continuously engaging?
Sean:
Yeah. Amy, I agree. That idea of just getting your message in front of people is so important. And I, I would actually encourage to you to get that message in front of people. And, and I think you brought this up before you preach. This has been a little bit different for some pastors who preach on the weekend. But, before you, you actually deliver that message on the weekend, find a mix of people that represent the people you’re trying to reach and get this message in front of them. Actually at my previous church, we tried to focus more on what we called the pre-brief. And discussing what we’re communicating, what we wanted people to hear, and what the next steps were from that message, rather than on the debrief, what did people actually hear when we talked, what did people, do with that information? We wanted to be a little more directive of that ahead of time and have a better idea and get some input before we even got the message in front of people.
And what, what that helped with is it actually, helped us catch probably 90% of the issues ahead of time. It didn’t create perfection, but man, it improved significantly what we were delivering. And I think that that kind of process, it really just takes preparation and forward-thinking, and you have to be intentional about it, especially in a growing church because there’s gonna be so many, so many other things to do. So many other things that take your time. So, just a couple of ideas of how to create kind of an intentional process for this. Set a regular meeting schedule. We did this on a weekly basis at my church, develop a common agenda that you’ll walk through together each week to call out, you know, what needs to change what do we want to hear about? What specific feedback do we need? And then always write down what you need to change and adjust before that weekend. And assign somebody responsibility for the most part, that may be the pastor just making changes to it, but there may be other things that, that people can be responsible for on your team.
Amy:
Can I jump in on that too, Sean? So those four questions that I just mentioned, I think that would be great in that pre-brief environment to make sure we always have those four elements in every message. And what I really like about this, this, and where I think lead pastors and teaching team members find relief is once they’ve written and delivered a message, whatever feedback you’re gonna give them, then maybe for the next service, I just think that’s really hard to incorporate big changes from one service to the next. So we just wanna do little tweaks. We wanna affirm after that first message that’s, or give little ideas on maybe what needs to be tweaked, but you cannot expect your lead pastor or your teacher to make wide, broad brushstroke changes to their message. So the more you build up this muscle in advance, the more beneficial it is, I think, for the teacher, for the lead pastor.
Sean:
Absolutely. That’s really good, Amy. Well, in each episode of this series, we invited a pastor we know who leads a church that’s excelling in one of the particular areas of the weekend service to share some of their insights. And in today’s episode, we actually invited Carlos Ortiz from Gateway Church in Austin. So I sat down with Carlos, we had a great conversation, and specifically we talked to Carlos about some of the standards that he holds himself to with his teaching, who he’s learning from in order to become a better communicator and improve, improve his communication, and then how he prepares and just gets helpful feedback as he goes into the weekend. So I think you’ll enjoy this conversation with Carlos Ortiz.
All right. So Carlos, we’re in a series to encourage pastors to kind of check the quality of their weekend services and really assess if they need to raise the bar right now. And when it comes to the quality of teaching, I just wonder what are some of the standards that maybe you hold yourself to?
Carlos:
Yeah, I think, a few things. The big thing is am I enjoying even teaching and presenting God’s word? Yeah, there’s the process of enjoying the process and the research and shaping it. But when I’m getting in front of people in the actual communication, do I exude some of the fruit of the spirit? Do I enjoy, do I exude joy? Do I exude patience in how I unfold the, the message? And usually, when I’m talking to people after the message, and by the way, if you’re a pastor, you should be in a lobby talking to people after your messages.
Sean:
That’s good.
Carlos:
Yeah. I’ll ask random leaders or random people, did it look like I was having fun up there? Did it look like this was effective? And, and if they say no, or if people stop me and say, Hey, are you okay today? That’s one of those things that tells me, am I really embodying this message that I’m trying to give for us thousands of people, much less for myself. And I would be remiss to not have that standard for myself. So, so that’s, that’s a big one. The, the another thing for a standard for me is, I, about 20 years ago, because I’ve been in this for a while, I realized that the empty praise of people who already love you can create this false sense of I’m a good teacher, this false sense that I’m actually a good pastor. These are people who love you and they’re for you. And we, we need that as pastors. And some of you who are listening don’t even get that. So yes, take it when you can get it, but when it comes to communication, I had to risk asking questions. So here’s an example. Somebody comes up to me and says, man, I love that message on Sunday. I never would ask this question, but for 20 years, I have now: tell me what really stood out to you.
Sean:
Oh, that’s good.
Carlos:
And about once out of every three times, they can’t tell me. They can tell me the feeling they had. They can tell me the emotion they felt. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing, but we’re teaching God’s word. We’re not doing TED talks.
Sean:
Yeah.
Carlos:
And so we want them to feel that feeling and emotion plus a grounding in scripture. So when somebody can look at me and said, when you said this in this passage, it really hit home, ding, ding, ding. Okay, I did my job. And so it’s letting yourself fail sometimes. It’s letting yourself hear some negative feedback. I’m a big feedback guy, so I think that’s really important. And the other standard is I actually submit my manuscript and what I’m teaching to a group of 25 people every time.
Sean:
Oh, wow.
Carlos:
And they have access to say, Hey, this scripture might be taken outta context. Hey, that story is actually really good. Spend more time on that. And it’s not that they’re better at communicating, it’s that their eyes and ears and they lead people in different, at different campuses. They lead people in different, phases of life. And I may throw in an anecdotal story that actually might derail the message. And so it’s just putting yourself in position of humility and letting people speak into it, because we can all get better. And so that’s the other standard. How do I get better every time and more effective.
Sean:
Carlos, I wonder what are some of the communicators that you follow and learn from right now?
Carlos:
Yeah. So this is gonna be a tricky answer for you. So I’ve been around a long time and I’ve sat under some of the best teachers, in the country. So you’re asking right now, and right now what I’m looking for is effectiveness and connection. And I think, and we’re big on understanding the culture. So right now, the people I listen to for how they best communicate with connection, understand the culture unfolding a story, are actually comedians. Comedians are usually on the forefront of culture. Now, I don’t listen to know how to tell a better joke. I listen for the, I listen for the cadence. I listen for where they step into tension. I, I listen for, well, do they smile? Do they not smile? And just understanding there’s so many different ways of doing it.
And it gives me insight into other things as well. What is the culture talking about? What are the tensions in the culture? I’m a maximizer. So I like doing something and it has like three or four layers to it. So I get to see communication, I get to hear about culture, and I get to see what are the tensions in the culture outside of the local church. And so those are the people I really listen to quite a bit.
I don’t have a specific preacher. I’ll tell you something I’m doing that anybody can do for free. And that is, there are times, I will just go on the internet and I’ll put a passage. I will find local pastors. I did that this morning, matter of fact, a Methodist guy out in East Texas, and I just saw, how did he teach on John 15?
Sean:
Oh, interesting.
Carlos:
And it’s this guy who probably leads 80 people. And just hearing his pastor’s heart on how he communicated John 15 to 70 people. I just had to pause and say, okay, yes, I can learn from somebody who teaches at churches our size and larger. But I can grow to be a pastor and shepherd from anybody.
Sean:
Yeah. I love that.
Carlos:
And so that I, I just diversify it so I don’t get fixated. ’cause here’s what we don’t wanna do. We don’t want to mimic somebody else’s voice. And I have seen that hundreds of times. We actually get in trouble with this, right? God has called us for our voice. So how are we curating the gift God’s given us? And if we really have that mindset, we can learn from all sorts of people in all kinds of arenas and not try to mimic our favorite teachers.
Sean:
Yeah. I wonder if there, are there any bad habits that you’ve found yourself sometimes falling into that you’ve gotta work on? Or maybe even that you’ve seen, not to criticize others, but you’ve recognized those things and others specifically when it comes to preparing for your messages.
Carlos:
Yeah. So I still, after 28+ years plus fall into some bad habits. One, I love to research. I tend to be an academic. So I get sidetracked with messages almost every single week. And I hope more of us get lost in studying God’s word and it’s good. But then what I end up doing as I end up trying to reverse engineer message so I can get more content in there. And so what we’ve done, we’ve created an outlet at our church. We call it digging deeper. It’s on our main webpage, and that’s where all of our people who are teaching you can dump extra verses, extra thoughts so that our group people can actually go to digging deeper and find the extra verses and extra context and things for dinner table conversations. So it’s not muddying our sunny morning experience and keeping that as simple as possible. So, that is one.
I would say two is I get in trouble for my wife all the time on this . I’m a pretty, I’m a really transparent teacher. I live openly. My background my sin nature, my habits, I came out of a life of addiction. And so I can’t live a dualistic life. I know where that’s gonna go. So I live pretty openly. And I think in that openness, I can revert back to some of my tendency, which I can be harsh. I can be really harsh. So I have to work on speaking the truth and making sure it’s filled with grace. And so I think that’s really important, but those are some of the bad habits.
Another thing I do is because of that, I can sound so like, this is the way it’s, and my body language, I’m a driver, so I can lean in and I lean into the camera. I lean in on stage. And so I’ve picked up some newer habits, like literally leaning back. I’m a more comfortable demeanor. This is bad habits for most people, but it’s actually something for me because I tend to lean in and get hard, is that I put my hands in my pocket sometimes. Like, relax Carlos. You’re shepherding people. You’re not trying to take them from point A to point Z trying to go from point A to point B.
And so those are some of my bad habits that I do. And, I think another one that, that I see is, I’ve stopped doing this about 10 years ago when I’m going to teach on a passage I rarely, one of this morning was one of those rare occasions, where I rarely listen to those pastors before I teach the message. I usually will do it afterwards when I’m reviewing my message. How would somebody else have done this? But every once in a while I’ll do it ahead of time. And the reason why is, because we’re human and I will tend to maybe take on a thought that wasn’t mine. And if I’m not careful, I, I won’t give it credit. And plagiarism’s not good, and it’s really easy to avoid. Right?
Sean:
Yeah.
Carlos:
Just say the pastor, you got it from quote the person. It’s not hard, not difficult to do, but those are some bad habits I have to avoid.
Sean:
Carlos, last question for you for today. We really encourage pastors just to evaluate their messages through the lens of can people apply this to their life? Teaching really that leads to transformation for people. So do you have any thoughts or wisdom to share related to just kind of growing, increasing the gift for people who are teaching on the weekend with how they help people apply what they’re learning to their life?
Carlos:
Yeah. So let me give you a little precursor. Your question, actually carries a lot of weight because it’s not just about preparing to speak. It’s actually also takes a little bit of work. And there’s already so much work going into the weekend message. So I’ll give you a real life example of my team. There’s a lot of things that have come off my plate recently. And my teaching team said, Carlos, would you be willing at the end of every week when you prepare your message to write some of the questions for our small group curriculum?
My first response was, heck no. I have a full-time job. I already have that I’m doing, but I had some self-awareness and I sat in, I said, give, explain to me why. And they said, it can take us up to an hour to read your manuscript, pray over it. What do we want the practical things to be? But if you’re already saturated with it and it’s already filling your cup, those questions will just flow out of you.
Sean:
Yeah.
Carlos:
And I just thought that’s a really nice way of saying you don’t want to do it. And so, two weeks ago was my first time, and can I tell you something? They were right.
Sean:
Yeah.
Carlos:
I’m done with the message and I get to dictate as the communicator, what hundreds of, if not thousands of people in groups are gonna discuss. And so I’m absorbing it into my process so that I’m not relying just on the weekend message, but also empowering group leaders and people in that digging deeper I told you about to ask good questions, right?
Sean:
Yeah.
Carlos:
And so I would say that’s a big part of it is what is the work afterwards? Because as pastors, you already put so many hours into this, don’t we want it to be effective? Well add just another or minutes saying, okay, after all these hours and all this research, what are four or five key questions? What are some connection questions people can do in groups? And we can probably do that a lot faster because we are saturated with the message quicker than somebody on our team or a volunteer.
Sean:
Amy, after listening to me and Carlos kind of talk through those questions together, what takeaways stood out to you?
Amy:
Yeah. Well, I, I loved a lot of it, but I really loved how he intentionally seeks out random leaders from his church and ask, did it look like I was having fun up there? He’s just intentional about that question because he wants to, as he put it, fully embody the message. And I think that practice of internalizing the importance of what he’s communicating is so key. I also thought it was great that Carlos was looking to comedians for inspiration in his communication style.
Sean:
Yeah. Yeah.
Amy:
And that’s a bit outside of the box, but of course, comedians are some of the most effective communicators in our culture.
Sean:
Yep. That’s right.
Amy:
It has to feel awful, I would think, to stand on stage and try to make people laugh, but then completely bomb, right? So the preparation on what it takes to deliver a joke, but make it seem like you’ve actually never delivered that joke before. I think that’s something we can all learn from. And, many of the pastors I’ve known over time, they’ve used that humor so well. But Sean, anything that you would add that stood out?
Sean:
Yeah. One of the things that stood out to me in the conversation with Carlos is, where he was focused on just not getting too deep into the weeds in his messages and actually focused on keeping it simple for people. He did mention they have a place on their website where they can add additional scriptures and thoughts as the pastors are going through and preparing. But I just love that Carlos was focused on that simplicity because I think that’s one of the keys in making teaching more accessible to insiders as well as outsiders who are sitting in that service on the weekend. So I love that aspect of what he does to prepare.
Well, thanks for joining this us this week on the podcast. And if you haven’t yet, make sure you download the tool that we’re giving away during this series. In the first phase of the Unstuck Process, we provide training to your staff to kind of learn to self-assess the quality of your weekend experience. And that’s something that we encourage churches to be doing regularly. When we’re on site working with a church, we facilitate a group discussion around the team’s observations. If you’re subscribed to the podcast, this kind of secret-shop-yourself tool is in the email that will be hitting your inbox this morning when the episode releases. But if you’re not signed up, of course, head to theunstuckgroup.com/podcast to get on the list.
Amy, as we wrap up, I just wanted to say thanks again to everyone who tunes in weekly to these conversations. Next week, we’re gonna continue our series with a conversation on how to effectively evaluate your weekend. So until we’re back next week, have a great week.
