Stuck or Unstuck? (Part 3)
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Our data consistently contradicts the broader trends of how religious affiliation and church engagement is declining in our country.
In fact, we personally know many churches that are experiencing major momentum right now—in terms of attendance, engagement, professions of faith, giving and all kinds of metrics of church health.
Clearly, there’s something different about the churches that are part of our tribe. So, what else makes an unstuck church?
MORE OF WHAT MAKES AN UNSTUCK CHURCH
In the final episode of the series, we’re going to share a few more things that make a church unstuck—more things those churches have in common.
- Reaching the next generation
- Being an outward-facing church
- Next steps for church leaders
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More Episodes in This Series
- The State of Religious Participation in American Life with Alan Cooperman of Pew Research Center – Episode 360
- Why Some Churches Are NOT In Decline – Episode 361
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Transcript
Sean:
Welcome to the Unstuck Church Podcast, where each week we are exploring what it means to be an unstuck church. Contrary to what you’ve heard, there are many churches that are growing in North America, and as we’ve researched and served these unstuck churches, we’ve noticed some key areas where they’re getting ministry right. On this week’s podcast, Tony and Amy conclude our series on the differences between stuck and unstuck churches with a conversation on some of the common characteristics of these growing churches. If you’re a new listener to the Unstuck Church Podcast, you won’t want to miss out on downloading the weekly episode show notes. Each week we share important information to support that week’s episode, offer bonus resources, and give you access to the full archive of resources when you listen to past episodes. To learn more, just go to theunstuckgroup.com/podcast. Now, before we dive in, here’s Tony with this week’s podcast sponsor.
Tony:
The six types of working genius is the fastest way to increase productivity and morale on your team. This 10-minute assessment gives you a custom report about why certain work frustrates you while other work energizes you. When you do it with your team, you’ll immediately understand how to better leverage each other’s geniuses. You’ll see better decisions, higher retention, and productivity without burnout. So get started at workinggenius.com and use code unstuckwg, that’s U-N-S-T-U-C-K-W-G, for 20% off.
Amy:
Well, welcome back to our listeners, and Tony, welcome back to you. We’re in our final message in this series about stuck or unstuck churches. And before we dive in, it was so fun to be with you and your wife, Emily, and our colleagues Tiffany and Sean at the Grow Conference. We don’t get to be face to face very often, but what a great time. And we saw some unstuck friends there. Some churches we’ve worked with – the Bayou down in Louisiana, MCI, where are they in Canada, Tony?
Tony:
Montreal. It was fun to see our French and English speaking friends, but they primarily are speaking French in their services and in their teaching. So it was fun to see them.
Amy:
Yeah, we actually met them at the airport. They were speaking French and Tiffany knows a little French. She was eavesdropping, and then I walked up and Maita said, hello. So it was fun to see them. And then a church I served, boy three years ago, three or four years ago, and then they just went through our multi-site process. Eagle Creek. I think they’re in the summit. So fun to see our friends and colleagues there, but really fun to see you and my teammates.
Tony:
Yeah. And it was fun also to be at Church of the Highlands and you know, we just had Pastor Chris Hodges on the podcast a few weeks ago, talking about the growth track at Church of the Highlands. But let me just say, the conference at Church of Highlands, it’s called the Grow Conference. And I have to think, because I know we sometimes get some criticism about talking about church growth. In fact, we’re going to talk a little bit about it in this particular episode. But I love the fact that they don’t hesitate to help churches get healthy and then help healthy churches grow. Because ultimately that’s the mission that we’re on as part of the body of Christ. We’re trying to help more people meet and follow Jesus and goodness. I want churches to be healthy, thriving in their ministry, and I want those churches to actually grow because they’re reaching more people for Jesus. So I love what’s happening at Church of the Highlands, and if you haven’t been to the Grow Conference at some point in the past, I would encourage you to check that out with your team as well.
Amy:
Yeah. One thing that Pastor Chris said that I’m sure it’s not new, but when he was talking about church growth and acknowledging that sometimes churches that talk about growth get criticized, you know, he made the comment, it’s not about so that more people will know our church. It’s so that more people will know Jesus. And I think like the megachurch kind of movement sometimes we think it’s all about that church being big, but it’s about Jesus and him being known, which is why I continue to enjoy this series. I wish we had six parts of it.
Tony:
That’s right. Well, in the series we’re exploring the differences between churches in decline and those that are not. And we personally know so many churches who have major momentum right now in terms of attendance growth, they’re seeing more people engaging in the life of the church. They’re seeing more professions of faith, giving’s increasing. I mean, all kinds of metrics that you might look at to determine is this church healthy or not? A lot of churches that we’re working with are experiencing that type of health right now.
Amy:
Yeah. And beyond the ones Tony, that we personally know, we also have the data from our quarterly unstuck church report that consistently contradicts the broader trends of how religious affiliation and church engagement is declining in our country. And so because of that, we know there’s something different about the churches who are part of our, what we call our tribe. And so in this final episode of this series, we’re going to share a few more reasons why churches are unstuck or not in decline the way the majority of them are. So let’s actually just jump right in today and share a few more reasons why some churches are outliers to this data on decline.
Tony:
And where I want to begin today is really related to reaching the next generation. And the reason why I say that, Amy, is because when we look at the data through the years, there’s this consistent theme that the churches that are truly multi-generational churches, meaning they’re not just reaching one generation, they’re reaching many generations, including the youngest of generations. Those tend to be healthier churches meaning those are the churches that are seeing more people say yes to following Jesus. And those churches are experiencing growth. And I would say there are some distinctives when we encounter a church that’s really intentional about reaching the next generation, I mean, first of all, you just see it and how they invest their financial resources both in staffing for staff that are engaged in next generation ministries and in the facilities. And I get it.
I mean, when we start to talk about facilities, there’s this concern that we’re thinking maybe too consumeristic about the people that we’re trying to engage. But the reality is people are consumers before they commit their lives to Jesus, and they become committed Christ followers. And because of that, I do think we need to be intentional if we’re going to reach the next generation about the investment we’re making, both in staff leadership, but also in the facilities themselves. And I would say this is all under the umbrella of churches that are intentional about reaching the next generation are actually focused on becoming a church for the next generation. And that’s a key distinction, Amy, because it’s not just having programs for kids. It’s not just about having programs for students. It’s like, no, the entire church recognizes the way we do church, our strategies, the investments that we’re making. All of that has to be for the purpose of reaching the next generation.
And the way I like to look at this is we have to become a multi-generational church rather than a single generation church. And I can point to a lot of stuck churches that have that single generation of gen Xers of single generation of boomers. Unfortunately we’re seeing single generation builder churches the oldest generation that are dying right now. And it’s all because they never really committed to being a multi-generational church. And frankly, the only way that you can be a multi-generational church is if all the generations are focused on reaching the youngest generations.
Amy:
Tony, as you’re saying that you, a phrase comes back that you say a lot, which is hope is not a strategy, because I think if you would talk to any of these single generational churches, they would be like, we want to reach young families.
Tony:
That’s right.
Amy:
We want to see the next generation here. But it’s all hope based. They aren’t doing the things that you’re talking about, which is truly becoming a church for the next generation.
Tony:
Or another extension of that that I’ve seen, Amy, is that they hire a kid’s pastor or a student pastor, but they only allow that kids or students’ pastor to make limited changes when the, within the context of their specific ministries without thinking more globally about how we actually have to reach parents. That’s if we’re going to see more kids and students engaged in our churches.
Amy:
That’s right.
Tony:
So, we’re going to talk a lot more about reaching the next generation. Actually, I think it’s in our upcoming series, Amy. But maybe just to call out some specifics, these are some maybe inadvertent misses that I see in churches that is not allowing them to reach the next generation. And because of that, and they are not becoming multi-generational churches. So one, as an example, some churches I’ve seen been to, you wouldn’t even know that they have kids’ ministry areas because those kids’ ministry areas are hidden in different buildings on different floors of the church in corners that are not very visible.
And the reality is they just haven’t thought about when parents walk in the front door, is there something that spills out into the lobby space, out into the gathering space that screams we love kids. And we’re glad that you are here and that you’ve brought your kids with you. Another example when it comes to kids spaces, we have, I know I have at least walked into a number of kids spaces that really were primarily designed for adults. In other words, primarily during the week, they’re used for adult education classes, and then they get converted on Sunday morning to become kids spaces. Or another example of this, the kids spaces are actually in preschools or elementary schools that are also a part of the church. And so the kids spaces look like classrooms that they’re in Monday through Friday anyways.
And goodness, what kid wants to come back to school on Sunday morning? So it’s just not thinking intentionally about the environments that churches are trying to create. And then maybe to carry this forward to students. I’m think maybe one of the most common mistakes that I see churches making is that they have separate gatherings for high school students in particular on Sunday morning, rather than designing Sunday services that high school students want to be engaged in. And then like adults inviting high school students to both attend a service and then serve on Sunday morning in some area of the church. And I would just say the churches that I’m seeing right now that are, are the most, that have the most health around reaching the next generation are actually trying to engage the next generation in the entire life of the church. And they’re very intentional about that. And Amy, like I said, this is such a passion of mine. I just want to give more focus to this. And so our next podcast series that’s coming up is we’re going to do a deep dive on what we can be doing as churches to be reaching younger families, to be reaching families with kids, with students. And I really want to give more focus to that conversation because it’s so critical to building a healthy, thriving ministry.
Amy:
Yeah. Well, to piggyback on kind of what you just shared on reaching the next generation, when I think about churches that are outliers, churches that are not declining, that kind of buck the trends that we hear, I think one of the biggest factors is they are just intentionally outward facing. Meaning they design their weekend experiences with a new person in mind, growing churches. The commonality is they see their weekend service as their primary strategy to reach new people. And then in partnership with their Christ followers who are part of their congregation, they’re creating an environment where people can invite their friends or family members to church any weekend, any service time, any time of the year.
In fact, I was just at a large growing church in Louisiana helping them with their staffing and structure. And on the follow-up call the lead pastor, this was a key connection he made during our conversations. He said that his biggest takeaway wasn’t really related to staffing, although it was really helpful. It was this concept that the weekend was their main strategy to reach people. It just brought him such clarity. And he said to his teams, he said, guys, we have a Lamborghini, but we’re driving it like a Toyota Corolla. So outliers drive their weekend like a Lamborghini. That it doesn’t mean by the way, you know, that the teaching’s watered down or that they play secular music, or that they just love this catch phrase of being attractional. It just means they’re going to teach in a way that people outside the faith can understand God’s word, how it applies to their life. And they consider all the other service elements through the eyes of someone who’s not connected to Jesus. Which means, of course, then they’re expecting guests, they’re prepared for guests, those next gen families you just talked about.
They’ve got a dream team of people who are ready when families walk in to help with kids, to walk them over to the kids space to make them welcome. And they’ve got people with high EQ in those guest service roles. And our churches, again, who are growing, they can still inadvertently make some misses in this area. And I think the biggest one, Tony, that I see is that we still have churches that really don’t welcome new people until like 30 minutes into the service. These outliers, again, they typically have overcome things like using churchy language of Narthex Fellowship. They’re long beyond that, but they often miss that welcome. Having it early in the service to put new people at ease.
Another thing that I see is just growing churches, these outliers, they’re investing in their community. They’re finding ways to get in their community and making a difference. In fact, a church that I was just with in St. Charles, Missouri, when I drove up to work with them on a Tuesday, I got stuck in a long line of traffic at their church. And I learned they have a pantry, a food pantry, that they offer in their community every week for people who are struggling with food scarcity. And that just, I mean, if you would’ve seen all the cars, it makes a huge difference. So outliers aren’t just thinking about what’s happening inside our buildings. They’re actually sending their people and finding some ministry strategies to how can we actually serve in our community. And the third I’d probably add within this umbrella of being externally focused, is that they are actually equipping their believers to be on mission in their daily lives.
So it’s not just about the weekend, it’s not just on showing up and inviting someone to church, but it’s helping their people understand personal mission fields and then building relationships so that hopefully sometime you can share your story or invite someone to church. One example, I don’t know Tony, if we can say the name of it, ’cause we’re talking about who they’re primarily trying to reach, but we had dinner with a pastor friend when we were at the Grow Conference, and one of the things that I just loved was that their church, who they are primarily trying to reach are single moms. You think about that, how many churches target single moms when they looked at that at their community tied with us being externally focused and investing in their communication. They are designing their ministry strategies around reaching those single moms who probably feel so alone and unequipped in their communities.
Tony:
Yeah. And Amy, I like it that you actually began here focusing on the weekend services. And I actually think over the last decade or more, we’ve been hesitant to talk about the weekend services as part of our growth strategy, as part of our outreach strategy. And yet, and the churches that we’re seeing that are seeing many, many people cross the line of faith, it’s still the weekend services that are the primary vehicle for seeing that life transformation happen. And I don’t doubt it. I would guess at least half of our population would never consider coming to church. But I still firmly believe when people start asking questions, spiritual questions, if they become spiritually curious, if they’re facing emotional health, mental health challenges, if they’re feeling isolated, if they’re at a place where they know they need connection, it’s very common for people, even though they’re not yet believers, even though they have not been a part of a church in the past, it’s still very common for them to show up to a church on Sunday morning. And I just love it that you’re just encouraging us, be prepared, be prepared.
Amy:
Be prepared.
Tony:
For new people to show up. Because we’re seeing in many of the churches that we work with that that still is a key front door to helping people connect with faith and then ultimately connect with the ministries of our church. But let me wrap up with this final thought here. Again, this is just something else that seems to distinguish the churches that are unstuck from the churches that are plateaued and in decline. And it circles back to where we began this conversation. There’s an intentionality around growth. They have specific growth strategies in place. So you can think again about some of the themes that Amy just talked about, growing through our weekend services, through encouraging people to be on mission in their lives and actually sharing their faith story and inviting friends, family members to take next steps towards Jesus and the church.
It could be targeted events that we’re having in our community to invite people that are not currently connected to church. It could be growth strategy specific to kids and student ministries. And again, becoming a multi-generational church that’s focused on reaching the next generation and on and on. But Amy, I would suggest that where growth strategies have to begin is a focus on growing disciples. And then growing leaders. And if we can begin to get that multiplication mindset working for us to encourage people to take their next steps towards Jesus, and then also to engage in leadership where people are discipling, leading, mentoring others, that is going to start the momentum of growth in our churches. In fact, I was just reading in Hebrews again this morning about how as Christ followers, it’s a very dangerous place if we think we need to continue hearing the teaching of God without becoming the teacher. Without becoming the discipler.
Amy:
Yes, yes.
Tony:
So it begins with growing disciples and growing leaders, and then multiplication needs to continue by considering growing the number of services or experiences that we’re offering in our church. And then we need to consider how do we grow into more locations, whether that’s through multi-site or a church planting initiative. But anyway, we look at it, growth has, there needs to be a strategy around that. We need to become more intentional about that, and we need to give this some focus as ministry leaders. And I will tell you that if you’re not experiencing growth today, you should still have a growth strategy. In fact, by developing that growth strategy and bringing focus and attention to that, that will help, that should help you begin to take some first steps of growth that over time will create the momentum that will lead you to become an unstuck church.
Amy:
Yeah. And Tony, just a couple of examples as you were talking, one of the takeaways from Grow, is I like how Pastor Chris told us how he tells his congregation, two outta the 52. So two times this year, you need to bring someone to church with you. And it’s a very practical challenge and a way to keep his congregation aware. Church is for me, but it’s not just for me. And I need to have my personal mission field and be looking for who God’s placing in my life. And twice a year. That’s my goal. That’s my target to invite someone. But I, so in reach strategies, we talk about that, right?
Tony:
That’s right.
Amy:
So part of what you’re talking about that’s right in growth is how we’re reaching new people. That’s numerical growth, but discipleship and spiritual formation, we also need to be challenged there. And I actually liked his example. I mean, it was probably a little over the top, but he talked about that person who’s come down for prayer every Sunday for two years, and how we need to challenge those people to go, you should be on the prayer team because you’ve been receiving prayer for two years. You need to step into your giftedness and how God designed us with these spiritual gifts and how he leverages things like that in his preaching to challenge people to take the next steps.
But when I think about the outlier churches that we’re working with, these churches that are bucking the system of decline, these are the headline things. They’re engaging in conversations with us. They’re talking about we need to shore up spiritual formation; we need to simplify it. How do we make it clear for people? And how do we lean into leadership development? So if those, for our listeners, if those are headline issues for you, you are not alone because it is so core on that other side of growth. There’s numeric growth and then there’s spiritual growth that those are engines that need to be humming in your church. So whether you’re growing or not, like you said Tony, those should be priorities with your leadership teams.
Tony:
That’s right.
Amy:
Well, Tony, what are some next steps we can leave church leaders with today related to this stuck or unstuck concept?
Tony:
Yeah. So, I first of all want to encourage you to get honest with yourself. Get honest about whether or not your church is experiencing growth or experiencing decline. And gosh, this is one of those times I was, Emily was just reminding me about my friend from years ago who used to refer to me as the velvet brick. In a kind way. I would bring the truth, I guess. And for you in your ministry, just I want to encourage you be the velvet brick. I mean, in a kind way point to the truth of what you’re experiencing as a ministry. Are you really accomplishing the mission that God’s given your church? And then secondly, if you do find that you are in decline, not experiencing the health, your church is not thriving, you’re not experiencing the growth that other unstuck churches are experiencing, I would encourage you to ask yourself how you’re doing in these three specific areas that we talked about today, are we prioritizing reaching the next generation? And if so, can you actually prove it? Secondly, is your church truly outward facing? And if so, how? How would someone not on your staff team be able to tell that that’s actually happening? And then thirdly, do you have clearly identified growth strategies? And the key here is not only do you have the strategies, but more specifically, are those strategies actually working?
Amy:
Great questions. Well, Tony, any final thoughts before we wrap up both today’s conversation and I guess this series?
Tony:
Yeah. Well, let me begin here. I mean, sometimes churches get stuck because they have seasons in the past where they were winning, they were experiencing health, they were experiencing growth, but they were never really clear why that was happening. And that really does make it hard to know what needs to change if you find yourself no longer winning as a ministry with your church’s strategy. And so I hope in this conversation over these last few episodes, that is triggering the right types of topics that you and your leadership team need to be considering so that you can find health again as a church.
Amy:
Well, we hope you enjoyed this series and the differences between stuck and unstuck churches, and that it’s given you some clarity about why your church might be showing signs of decline or might answer that question, Tony, why you are winning. So we have a fun bonus episode for you that’ll be out tomorrow. It’s an interview with Bo Johnson from the Table Group to talk about some of the other critical aspects of organizational health that churches need to pay attention to. So I hope you’ll enjoy that.
Tony:
And then lastly, as we close out, we’d be remiss if we didn’t clearly say it hope is not a strategy. You said it earlier, Amy. Hope is not a strategy against church decline. And while God builds his church, he’s chosen to give the mission to his people to carry it out. Pastors often engage our team when they realize that their church is beginning to decline, often when growth is flat or slower than in previous years. We help them clarify where God’s calling the church to go and how they’re going to get there. And we help the team get moving. In everything we do, of course, we aim to help churches, help people meet and follow Jesus. And you can learn more about the Unstuck process and how that works at theunstuckgroup.com.
If you haven’t already, take your staff team through the six types of working genius. You’ll better understand how to use each other’s gifts to get more done. We actually have some people on the Unstuck Team who have been certified in Working Genius, and they can help you maximize it on your team. You can get started with the assessment at workinggenius.com and use code unstuckwg, that’s U-N-S-T-U-C-K-W-G, for 20% off.
Sean:
Well, thanks for joining us on this week’s podcast. At The Unstuck Group, our goal is to help pastors grow healthy churches by guiding them to align vision, strategy, team and action. In everything we do, our priority is to help churches, help people meet and follow Jesus. If there’s any way we can serve you and your church today, reach out to us at theunstuckgroup.com. Next week we’re back with a brand new episode. So until then, have a great week.
