Hot Topics (Part 2)
Burnout is something we hear about constantly when we’re working with churches.
This topic is incredibly timely and and personal for a lot of pastors. Burnout is not just about being tired or having a busy season—it’s much deeper than that. It affects leaders physically, emotionally, spiritually, and it impacts their teams and their churches in ways they might not even realize.
In this episode, Sean and I are joined by Jimmy McLoud, the Lead Pastor of First Christian Church in Canton, Ohio and a ministry consultant on the Unstuck team, to talk about how burnout affects church staff members.
You can’t lead people to a place with Jesus you’re not willing to go yourself. [episode 427] #unstuckchurch Share on X Boundaries aren’t laziness. They’re obedience. [episode 427] #unstuckchurch Share on X When you burn out, you’re often giving permission for others to do the same. [episode 427] #unstuckchurch Share on X Longevity in ministry doesn’t happen by accident. [episode 427] #unstuckchurch Share on X
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More Episodes in This Series
Christmas – Episode 426
AI – Episode 428
Gen Z – Episode 429
Transcript
Sean:
Welcome to the Unstuck Church Podcast. I’m Sean, your host here with Amy Anderson. And Amy, today’s conversation is one that we’ve been anticipating really for a couple of months now. This is episode two in our December series on hot topics where we’re digging into just the key issues that church leaders are wrestling with right now. Last week, we kicked off things with a conversation about Christmas, and then this week we’re tackling a topic that’s really, I think, incredibly timely and honestly really personal for a lot of pastors. And that’s burnout.
Amy:
Yeah. I said this last week, I saw that across the country this past year, just for all the challenges that pastors were facing into burnout was just very possible for some of these leaders. And burnout is something we hear about constantly when we’re working with churches. And it’s not just about being tired. It’s not just about having a busy season. It’s actually deeper than that. Right? It affects leaders physically, emotionally, spiritually, and it impacts their teams and their churches in ways that they might not even realize.
Sean:
Before we get to it, though, I wanna stop and say thanks to our podcast sponsor Donorbox for helping make today’s podcast possible. You know, a lot of churches are still relying on cash and checks for offerings, and half of churchgoers actually prefer to give electronically. Donorbox has a Live Kiosk solution that helps churches boost their giving by 35%. This gives churches more resources to be able to do more ministry. And all you need is a tablet, a card reader and Donorbox’s app. Donorbox will let your congregation make tithes offerings and donations instantly with cards or digital wallets like Apple Pay or Google Pay. You can get two months free of the Live Kiosk if you go to donorbox.org/unstuckpodcast, that’s donorbox.org/unstuckpodcast.
So today we’re joined by a guest who brings a really unique perspective on this. Jimmy McLoud has joined us, and he is the lead pastor of First Christian Church in Canton, Ohio, as well as one of the ministry consultants on our team here at Unstuck. So, glad to have you on the podcast, Jimmy.
Jimmy:
I’m really excited to be back. Thanks for having me.
Amy:
And Jimmy, I think this is a conversation every pastor needs to hear, whether they’re in the middle of burnout right now, or they’re just trying to prevent it, or if they’re leading a team and they wanna help protect the health of the staff. So I think let’s just jump in on this one today, Sean.
Sean:
Jimmy. You know, we know burnout is something a lot of pastors are facing right now, but it’s not always easy to talk about. Right? Could you start just by sharing a little bit of your own story with burnout? What did it look like for you? And then how did you recognize that you were in it?
Jimmy:
Yeah. Burnout snuck up on me. It’s kinda like a slow leak in my soul. So my season of burnout was a few years back. I was the executive pastor here at FCC at the time, and we were just a few months into COVID and like every senior leader in every church in America trying to figure out how to do ministry and how to lead in an entirely new season that just kind of happened overnight. And working 16 hour days, spinning multiple plates doing like three people’s jobs.
Amy:
Wow.
Jimmy:
It seemed like, and just trying to regroup and keep things together. And so for me, burnout started as emotional exhaustion just as a result of that constant output, and not enough input. So, like, I saw my motivation shift from calling to obligation. And it’s not just that I wasn’t having fun, I mean, honestly, I wasn’t having any fun in that season. But I was just trying to survive another week. And the things that used to fill my tank in ministry now started to feel like chores. And I just moved from loving what I was doing to really resenting it quickly. And honestly, I didn’t even notice that I was burned out. It was my wife who picked up on it first. I remember it was about two or three in the morning, and she was asleep in bed next to me, but I was working on my iPad.
Amy:
Oh my goodness.
Jimmy:
And this was the fourth or fifth night in a row that I was up, like all night working, and she rolled over and looked at me. At one point I thought maybe I was just being too loud typing on my iPad screen and woke her up. But when I looked at her, she had big tears in her eyes and she said, Hey, you don’t realize this, but if something doesn’t change or you don’t get some help, I think you’re gonna die. And so she’s the one who saw it first. And that’s what prompted me to start to do some self-assessment. Get some help.
Amy:
Yeah. Well, self-assessment, maybe just let me ask a couple questions there. But by the way, being on an iPad at 2:30 in the morning, if any of our listeners are there, that’s a good sign that you might be doing too much.
Sean:
That’s true.
Jimmy:
Yeah, I think so.
Amy:
Jimmy, how can pastors do an honest self-assessment right now? You know, we like to encourage churches to, you know, engage with the vital signs, to look at their church health or from like, you know, physical health, go to the doctor, run your numbers. Right? Are there any vital signs pastors should be looking at their own lives to gauge whether they’re heading towards burnout or not before they get there?
Jimmy:
Absolutely. Yeah. One of the biggest challenges for pastors when it comes to burnout, just mental health and physical health and relational and spiritual health, is we’re so good at helping other people process their stuff. And we’re really bad about being honest about it in our own lives. And so I would start with this, pay attention to what’s leaking out of you. And what I mean by that is like, when your schedule gets tight, what do you go to? Do you go to your prayer life or do you go to productivity? And do you think I just need to accomplish something or check a box or, you know, mark a goal off my list? And you could also ask that the other way. Which one of those do you lean into? When somebody criticizes you, do you respond with grace or are you instantly defensive? When you’re alone, do you still enjoy being with God? Or do you only know how to work for him? That’s a key indicator in pastoral ministry burnout.
Those are heart vital signs, and things that I had to learn to read. And so I would say burnout does not start with exhaustion. That’s what most people would look for and what they think. But it really starts with disconnection. When we stop being with Jesus before, and we just, we really start working for him and that becomes our being with him. That’s when burnout in ministry is inevitable. So just ask, what space am I, am I leading out of? What space am I living out of? Am I being with Jesus or am I trying to do for Jesus? Because one of those will fill your tank and the other one is just gonna drain it dry.
Amy:
Oh, that’s a great response. I can look back to my days in ministry and our team, I wish I had, would’ve had that headline to do that assessment. Right?
Sean:
Yep.
Jimmy:
You know, like I would ask things like, you know, when it comes to joy, am I finding joy in Jesus? Or is it just in the results of ministry? Because if your identity is just in the results of your output and your productivity, that’s a thing to watch for a red flag that goes off margin. Do you have space in your schedule for things that are life giving or is it all just the things you have to do to get the job done? Relationships, like, this is big. Does anybody outside, does anybody know you outside of your role? Like, is there anyone in your life in your relational circle who doesn’t call you pastor? That’s big. You need those relational connections when you’re disconnected in those ways. Oh, you’re in trouble.
Sean:
That’s really good. Jimmy, I personally experienced burnout back in 2011. And I know that burnout doesn’t just affect the leader, just me personally. It impacts the whole team. It can impact if you’re in that lead seat, the entire health of the church. So I’m just curious, how did the, how did your burnout affect your team and the ministry as a whole?
Jimmy:
Oh, it definitely leaks. I used to think burnout was just an internal thing. Like a private, you know, I gotta work through this. Or, you know, even when I came to the place where I was willing to admit that I needed to get some help and some guidance, some counseling, I still felt like it was something I needed to handle and it won’t affect other people if I just work through it. And I found out quickly that is not true. Burnout is very contagious. My exhaustion made me more critical. It made me less patient. It made me harder to follow. And when I was really drained, our culture and our church got really tense. And I noticed that our staff started to mirror my pace. And so it affected them in that negative way too. They felt like they needed to kind of match me in terms of output and, you know, just how hard I was working, doing things like that. And it started to wear on them. So ministry was still working. It just wasn’t thriving anymore. And our creativity just really tanked out. We didn’t, we just, we were walking on eggshells around each other. And it’s ’cause everybody started to burn out. It’s a total trickle down thing. And it started with me. So that’s when I really had to face the reality that if I didn’t get healthy, the culture was gonna really wither and die. And so it was a wake up call.
Amy:
Well, I’ve only known you outside of burnout, so obviously you did some things to recover from it all. So let’s talk about that. What were some practical steps, Jimmy, that you took to recover from this burnout? So obviously first you had to notice it, but then what were your next steps?
Jimmy:
Yeah. I wish I could say it was a quick fix, but it was not a quick fix. So you just met me late enough, Amy, that I had already worked through all of that stuff.
Amy:
Yep.
Jimmy:
The first thing I had to do was, and this was, I’ll admit this was really hard for me. I’m, I am a personality that I do not admit when I need help. I like to do things myself. But I had to admit that I wasn’t okay. And I needed some help. I had to stop pretending I was fine. And that started with getting honest with God. I had to get honest with my wife. I had to get honest with my counselor who was a huge part of the recovery process for me. That was step one. And it wasn’t easy. It’s very humbling to admit that you’re not okay and you don’t know how to get back to okay. But I had to get outta my own way in that sense so that healing could start.
And then I just had to slow down, not even like to a slow pace, but just to a normal pace. And I think that’s true for a lot of people in ministry. Most of us work at a faster than normal pace, because that’s just, ministry gravitates towards several things. It gravitates toward complexity, but it gravitates toward a faster pace. ’cause there’s so much to do and keep up with. And I just had to give myself time to rebuild. And part of that was learning to unapologetically say no to things I didn’t have to say yes to, but I just did because I wanted to please people. Or I wanted to get things done. I still didn’t have a ton of margin in my schedule, but I started to protect the margin that I did have and just try to create more. And then the third thing was I had to rebuild some healthy relational rhythms, some healthy spiritual rhythms. And that was prayer time. It’s time in the word. It’s reading, but not reading to study for a sermon.
Amy:
There you go.
Jimmy:
Or, you know, something like that. It’s time in the word for me, for my soul. And I had to learn to change the way that I thought about rest. To understand, first of all, rest is not laziness, it’s obedience. And second, there’s a huge difference between resting and resting in Jesus. And I had to learn the difference between the two. A vacation is not necessarily rest.
Amy:
That’s just a trip sometimes, especially if you have kids.
Jimmy:
That’s right. That’s right. Sometimes, if you have kids, you come home and you need a vacation.
Amy:
That’s right. Those are trips, not vacations.
Jimmy:
A hundred percent. Yeah. And so for me, it was resting in Jesus. It was the whole idea of abiding in him and I spent a lot of time talking and studying, like the idea of a covenant relationship and the fact that my identity and, and even more than that, like my standing with God and his approval of me doesn’t have to do with my success in ministry. I think it was Billy Graham who said, I’m not called to lead a church and I’m not called to grow a church. I’m called to be faithful. And so it was like reminding myself of those kinds of things. And then just one other thing is just kind of segueing to that I had to redefine success. I used to measure it by ministry output, and now I, I just had to learn to measure it by faithfulness.
Sean:
Yeah.
Jimmy:
I tell pastors all the time, you can’t lead people to a place with Jesus you aren’t willing to go yourself. So I had to start modeling what I told other people to do.
Sean:
Yeah. You know, a lot of pastors like you, they’re leading churches. The pace of ministry is really fast. And honestly, they’re really driven type of people. They’re people who like to see results. And that’s usually why they’re church end up seeing ministry results. They’re growing; they’re seeing more people come to faith. And there’s something that’s great that’s built into that. There’s also a shadow side of that personality type. Right? So I’m just thinking about, you know, as we head into the new year, how could we encourage pastors who are driven to kind of protect their health, also protecting the longevity of their ministry and their church as a whole. What are some of the boundaries that you, I think you’ve touched on some rhythms already, but some of the boundaries that they could put in place in order to protect that.
Jimmy:
Yeah. Great question. You know, the real downfall for a lot of people in ministry is, it’s, we don’t burn out because we don’t love Jesus. We burn out because we try to be Jesus. You know, when your church is growing, when people are coming to Jesus, when you’re seeing the things happen that you wanna see happen, there’s this thing inside of you that one, you get some like an ego boost by that. You get fueled by that. You get excited about that, and you think, if this is gonna keep going, I have to do something to make sure this keeps going. And so you just pour out and you start to carry things that he never asked you to carry. So I think sustainability, and you use the word longevity, and that’s a good word. Like in ministry, comes down to the idea of building some rhythms and establishing these guardrails.
So some of mine are, I had to first of all, establish a real Sabbath, protecting some time with my wife and our kids. Being okay with shutting my phone off when I go home and I’m, my wife’s gonna listen to this podcast and then tell me that I’m still awful with this. But I had to try to start getting better at just checking out and allowing myself to be truly off duty once in a while. And that kind of goes back to the difference between resting and resting in Jesus. I had to take time, not just even to be with other people, but to be alone with God. And I’ll be honest, when I was burnout, I didn’t wanna do that. There was something about that that was maybe even a little bit scary in a sense.
Another thing that I try to do is I start my day with identity and not productivity before I start thinking about what I have to do. I try to take a few minutes just to be one-on-one with God. And that is not a natural thing for me. My natural first thought is what’s on my list today? What do I need to be prepared for walking into the office? But read my Bible, but not ’cause I’m reading for a sermon, just reading to let the spirit speak to me. And, you know, those kinds of things.
I’ve started putting relational time on my calendar first. Anything that we have planned as a family or with friends that goes on my calendar before anything work related takes precedent over it. And I’ve created some no ministry conversation zones. And what I mean by that is, I noticed this thing, especially when we would spend time with friends from our church, but even other friends in ministry, the conversation always goes to ministry and it always goes to church.
Sean:
Sure.
Jimmy:
And I remember one time very specifically, we had a couple of friends over and we were sitting over dinner and we started talking about ministry. And I was super tired that day, and I had to stop the conversation in the middle of somebody’s sentence and say, we cannot talk about church tonight. We can talk about how awful the browns are, or we can talk about, you know, the weather. I don’t care. It just cannot be about ministry tonight. And so then after that, you know, Ashley, my wife and I talked and I said, when we hang out with people, I need to not talk about church. I just, anything else is fine.
And then last thing, have a space where you’re not the leader. We are in a small group. Ashley and I, we don’t lead it. We’re just in it. And I’m in a men’s group. I don’t lead it. I’m just in it. I sit in a circle with guys at this bonfire, and I’m just one of the guys. I need those faces. And I didn’t have ’em for a long time, but I had to get into spaces where I wasn’t the leader. I’m just there as part of the group or whatever that is. And that could be counseling for some people that could be go get a mentor or, you know an accountability partner or something. But get into a space where people actually know you beyond your title and where they’re not looking to you to be the leader in that space.
Sean:
That’s really good. Jimmy, I was just thinking, you know, Amy and I have only known you on the good side of your tough season. You were coming out of a tough season, but we got to know you and your church after that tough season, and we were so impressed with your leadership, your giftings, that we asked you if you’d be a part of our team because we think those would benefit other churches. So all of your recommendations here, your suggestions, those insights obviously really worked because you did, you came through a tough season and you guys are on a much healthier side now. I just wonder, we wrap up today’s conversation. Is there anything else that you would wanna leave listeners with?
Jimmy:
Yeah, I guess one thing that came to mind to me right there, Sean, just thinking about that season is, it’s okay to set these boundaries.
Amy:
Yes.
Jimmy:
You know, there’s a guilt that you feel in ministry when you start setting boundaries around the kind of access people have to you or boundaries around your time. But boundaries are not necessarily always to keep people out. Sometimes it’s just guardrails for your soul to keep you on the road. Yeah. So man, I would just, I would encourage the audience listening to the podcast, don’t let the enemy make you feel guilty for setting those boundaries for yourself. That is what will keep not only you from burning out, but it’ll keep your family from falling apart. It’ll keep your ministry from dying. It’s how you’re gonna hang in there. And that is an okay thing to do. It’s not laziness. It’s not disrespect to people. It’s obedience. It’s obedience.
Sean:
That’s good.
Amy:
You know, my favorite concept, and I’ve heard it before, Jimmy, but you just said it in such a way that it made it sticky. You know, reading God’s word, it’s like relational reading, not vocational reading.
Jimmy:
Oh, I like that.
Amy:
And then, prayer time, it’s like relational time with the Lord, not vocational time with the Lord when you’re in those spaces. And Sean, I think that applies to you and me and other ministry leaders. Because it’s so easy for those of us wired for performance to tip into the vocational reading and the vocational time spent with God. So it’s a good challenge for me even personally. So thanks for sharing that.
And a couple of other things that came to mind as you were sharing your story. Number one, we created the Unstuck Teams assessment so that pastors could get a look at their organization. Lance Whitt helped design that, but it’s looking at the health side of your team, and it’s looking at the performance side. And if you have a question listeners, how am I doing? I would take that assessment if you’re part of the Learning hub, it’s free. You can subscribe to pick it up. But I just think it gives you a good snapshot because you set the tone right as a lead pastor. And I like how you set it. When I was burning out, I was basically encouraging other people too, because they follow my actions, they follow what I do. So I think that might be a resource for our listeners.
Another one is the content we’ve put out about the four roles a senior pastor can’t delegate. Because there is so much that can be delegated. And I wonder for anyone that’s feeling a little crispy right now, I wonder if you just have too much on your plate, too much that you’re trying to actually lead through. Yeah. So I would revisit that. We’ve done podcasts on that concept, but we need to get more off the lead pastor’s plate so that they have the time to spend on the four that they can’t.
Sean:
That’s true. That’s true.
Amy:
And I loved the last part about, you know, again, I married to a lead pastor, so I understand that how every conversation can turn into a ministry conversation. So just that challenge to get outside of your ministry a little bit. And I think, you know, do you have a tribe? Do you have a group, you know, Unstuck can do some of that? We put together cohorts where ministry leaders can meet other ministry leaders and learn from one another and build relationships. We’re actually—little sneak peek—we are currently exploring, launching a network next year where we can connect more people who are connected to the Unstuck tribe to one another. Because there’s so much to learn and share. I mean, even this concept right here, it would be great for senior pastors to be talking about that in a safe tribe. Just how are you doing? How are you doing? And how can we encourage and pray for and hold one another accountable? So thank you for that concept. I just think God’s gonna take it off the paper today and really talk to pastors as they’re landing 2025. Right? If 2025 has been a pathway towards burnout, this is such a great time to assess it and make some advanced decisions as to what 2026 will look like.
Sean:
Absolutely. Yeah. Great thoughts from both of you. Thank you. And Jimmy, thanks for joining us for this conversation and being willing to share your story. It’s super helpful for the pastors who listen, so we appreciate that.
Jimmy:
Thanks for inviting me.
Sean:
Absolutely. As we wrap up, we just wanna say a huge thanks to everyone who’s been listening to The Unstuck Church Podcast throughout 2025. Again, your engagement and being a part of this podcast, sending us feedback, just supporting us means the world to us.
Amy:
Yeah, absolutely. We are so thankful for the community of church leaders who are just committed to leading healthy, growing churches. You know, our tagline is, “We help pastors lead unstuck churches,” and you guys are doing a fantastic job. And for any listeners, if you’re feeling a little stuck or feeling like maybe we need to get on a different trajectory for 2026, we’d love to talk to you about engaging with one of our processes, whether that’s the Unstuck Church Process, staffing and structure, multi-site launch, all of that kind of stuff. Now’s the time to reach out for 2026.
Sean:
That’s right. We’re booking Q2 of 2026 already. So if you’d like to get onto the calendar, head over to theunstuckgroup.com and we can start a conversation about how we can help your church and help your church be healthier and have a greater impact in your community.
Amy:
Yep. And then next week, we’re gonna hit another hot topic in this series. And it’s on AI. We are getting into that topic with executive pastor Paul Alexander, who’s one of our ministry consultants. And he is a longtime executive pastor at Sun Valley Church in the Phoenix area. So you won’t wanna miss that. Until then, have a great week and we’ll see you next week.
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