Structured For Burnout (Part 4)
How do you know if burnout isn’t structural…but instead, personal?
We’re closing out our “Structured for Burnout” series with something that doesn’t always make it onto the agenda: caring for yourself and your soul while you’re busy caring for everyone else.
We invited Lance Witt, a member of The Unstuck Group’s lead team and a respected voice to pastors all across the country on the topic of leading from a healthy soul, to share his wisdom and experience on the topic.
In this episode, Lance and Sean dig into the topic of personal burnout: what it actually looks like and what practical next steps look like for leaders who want to lead from a healthier place:
- Burnout Warning Signs for Church Leaders: Structurally and Personally
- Why Do We Believe That Busyness Equals Importance?
- How to Keep Yourself Out of Burnout and Stay Replenished
One of the most common things that leads to burnout is that pastors constantly add without ever taking away. [episode 445] #unstuckchurch Share on X We’ve bought the lie that busyness equals importance. [episode 445] #unstuckchurch Share on X Embrace delight. Most leaders are delight deficient. [episode 445] #unstuckchurch Share on X
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Transcript
Sean:
Welcome to the Unstuck Church Podcast. I’m Sean, your host, and we are going to start this week’s podcast just a little bit differently because of course last week on the podcast, I mentioned to you listeners that our friend Amy Anderson had experienced a stroke. And Amy’s doing well; she’s on the road to recovery—that’s the great news. And for those of you who have been praying and thinking of her, we are so grateful for that.
But I know at the same time, I’ve heard from a lot of you. Many of you feel like you have the sense that you know Amy. You listen to Amy every week, and because of that, many of you are experiencing some feelings of loss or an emotional reaction to that. And I’m actually going to get into a conversation today, an interview. It’s going to be a great interview with Lance Witt. Lance is really a pastor to pastors, and a pastor to many of us at the Unstuck Group. But as Lance and I were setting up for this week’s episode and thinking about what happened to Amy, we were processing that emotion, and Lance had some really great thoughts to share.
Lance:
Well, Sean, thank you for that. And like you and like so many of us, I’m feeling sort of that sense of grief and sadness about what Amy and Jason are going through. But I think one piece of the backstory that to me is encouraging was that by God’s grace, Amy was at home. And her husband Jason who is a pastor happened to be there, and they were able to get medical help immediately.
And as Sean said, some of you probably know Amy as the primary voice on the Unstuck Podcast for the last couple of years. You might know her from her work as a very gifted church consultant. But, man, for those of us in the Unstuck family, we know her as an amazing human being and as a wonderful follower of Jesus and as an amazing wife and mom and grandmother and friend. And we’re in this moment of just feeling the hurt because our dear friend has been dealt such a devastating blow.
I can just speak for me personally, Sean. Since getting this news a few days ago, Amy and Jason and their family have just been on my heart and in my prayers just constantly. And I just want to invite anybody who is listening to this, even right now, just sort of whisper a prayer to our good God on Amy’s behalf and to intercede for her and her family. And many times over these last couple of weeks, I’ve thought of and claimed the promise of Psalms 34 for the Andersons but also for all of us who are holding this moment with some heaviness. And it’s a well-known verse, but it says the Lord is close to those who are brokenhearted and he rescues those crushed in spirit.
And in times of sadness and life’s unexpected turns like this one, personally, I’m clinging to that hope. That God will be a close and constant companion in my life but even more so for Jason and Amy and for their family as they walk through this season with some new challenges and so. We love the Andersons. We are going to do everything we can to be present with them and support them as they walk out this new season.
Sean:
Thank you for that, Lance. It’s a great reminder, and we didn’t want to get right into this week’s content without giving an update on Amy and taking a moment just to think and consider where she is today. And for those of you who are praying, we ask that you continue to pray for her. She and Jason could use the support and would love the support in this season that they have ahead of them.
So, thank you, Lance, we’re actually going to get into a conversation together now about a different topic, but I appreciate you joining me and helping us launch this week in this way.
Lance:
Thanks so much, Sean.
Sean:
Welcome to the Unstuck Church Podcast. I’m Sean, your host, and today I wanna share with you a conversation with one of my favorite people to talk to when it comes to ministry leadership. We’ve spent the majority of this series looking at how your structure can create burnout, and last week we got to talk with Cody Thompson about the Working Genius and how surrounding yourself with the right geniuses can actually help mitigate burnout. So, to close out this series, I wanted to go a different direction and talk directly to lead pastors and ministry leaders about something that doesn’t always make it onto the agenda, and that’s caring for yourself and your soul while you are busy caring for everyone else.
And honestly, there’s no one I’d rather have this conversation with than my guest today. Lance Witt is, and I mean this kind of a pastor’s pastor, he coaches pastors all across the country on this idea of leading from a healthy soul. And it’s not just a side project for him, it really is his calling. We’ve had him on the podcast a few times, and every conversation is worth the listen. So today, Lance and I are going to dig into the topic of burnout, what it actually looks like, and what practical next steps look like for leaders who want to lead from a healthier place.
Before we get started though, I wanna say thanks to our podcast sponsor PlainJoe Studios, who made this week’s podcast possible. Our most recent Unstuck Church Report—if you haven’t downloaded it, you should—said that the average church is actually growing by 14% year over year. And that means there are a lot of churches paying more attention to their worship space than ever. Well, the creative team at PlainJoe works with churches to create beautiful, engaging spaces that connect with their community. They have a team of architectural, design and branding experts who help transform worship spaces into attractive, engaging hubs for the community. If that’s an area your church could use some help with, reach out to them today at plainjoe.net. Now here’s my conversation with Lance Witt.
Well, Lance, it’s great to have you back on the podcast. For our listeners who don’t know you, will you just tell us a little bit about your ministry experience and then after that, what you’re up to today?
Lance:
It might take me a little while to share with you all of my ministry experience ’cause I’m old. I this year actually celebrates 50 years of ministry in my life.
Sean:
Wow. That’s incredible.
Lance:
So, I started really young as a youth pastor. I became a senior pastor at the age of 23. I’ve always said I should go back and apologize to that church. But I was a senior pastor for 20 years, and then in 1999, I went and joined the staff at Saddleback Church with Rick Warren and was there during those fun and crazy years of Purpose-Driven Life and 40 Days of Purpose campaign. And after seven years of being there, again, much longer story, but I just knew I had to leave. Like I was not in a good place. I wasn’t leading myself well, and I knew I couldn’t do that there. And so without another place to go, I stepped away from my ministry role there and was really pretty lost and confused. And God led me, in that season to, start a ministry that is now called Replenish, which is focused on helping leaders live and lead from a healthy soul. And so I’ve been doing that, it’s hard to believe almost 20 years now.
Sean:
Wow. Yeah.
Lance:
And I think, you know, part of the irony of this story is that I am trying to help pastors live from a healthy soul. And it was something I was doing so poorly back when this first started. And I feel like in many ways, I’ve been on this journey to bring my own soul back to life over these last 20 years. And now I get the privilege of coming alongside pastors and being a friend to them and their teams and helping them do great ministry, but do it out of a soul that is in love with Jesus and living a healthy life.
Sean:
Yeah. And Lance, you do such a great job at that, and I think I’m sure you’ve seen this, but it seems like, burnout, you know, just in doing ministry over the years, burnout just has become kind of a common cycle for us. We, some, many of us have been through it. We see leaders that we look up to go through it, and there’s been a lot of talk about it in recent years. So I just wanna make sure that we’re all clear on what we’re talking about and that we mean the same thing as someone like you who works every week with church leaders. How do you think about burnout?
Lance:
Well, first off, I think it’s important to recognize that the first step, I think, to burnout is that you love what you do. And for a lot of us, that’s our story, right? We love Jesus. We’re called to ministry. It’s certainly not a nine to five job. It takes everything you’ve got and then some, which in some ways sets up, sets us up to begin to experience some burnout. But I think you’re right. It’s become a bit of a buzzword and can be used to mean a lot of different things. I think whenever people get frustrated or tired these days, it’s easy to just say, man, I’m just burned out. And I think there’s a continuum that we have to recognize. And I would say my experience is very few people that I work with ever really hit the wall in what I would call classic flame out burnout kind of experience where you know, deplete your serotonin, where you hit the wall, where you are looking for escape in any way possible.
And I think when you hit that level of burnout, it’s a multi-year recovery. So I don’t think most of us are there, but I think when most leaders that I work with use the term burnout these days, what they sense is I’m on the path could that could allow me to hit the wall. I am living in such a way that if this movie plays its way all the way forward, the final concluding scene is one of me in a bad place.
Sean:
Yeah. That makes sense.
Lance:
I think the word I would use often instead of burnout is the word depleted.
Sean:
Oh, that’s good.
Lance:
I think I see that word differently than tired. I think when I’m tired, a good day off, a nice vacation helps me to recover. But when you are really depleted and you have nothing left in the tank, and you’ve lived that way for a while, a day off doesn’t do anything for you. Even a week long vacation, you come back and you go, man, I am still, my tank is just not full. So I think for a lot of leaders, they are in a level of depletion, and we use the burnout word to sort of cover that.
Sean:
That’s so good, Lance. That is a great definition. Just building off of that, what are some of the warning signs that show up in a team, like in a ministry when, you know, burnout’s on the horizon or depletion is on the horizon?
Lance:
Well, of course, when we say burnout shows up in a team or a ministry department or whatever, at the end of the day, you’re always talking about individuals, right?
Sean:
Right. Yeah.
Lance:
And so, it’s asking the question, how does it show up in individuals? And that can vary from personality to personality. But I mean, a few things that sort of come to my mind are, and again, I would say, it’s a pattern of these things. Not that there’s a one-off or somebody has a bad day, but like, when you have a pattern of a short fuse all the time, that could be a sign that you’re beginning to be depleted when you show up in an irritable way. Right? And you know, it just, it just leaks out in your tone, in your short answers, in your inability to be present. I think that’s a warning sign when you don’t have a shock absorber to be able to absorb the disappointments, the changes that happen in a ministry. And it’s like you have a strong reaction. And I think, again, we should be curious about that. Like, whoa, what just happened? Why was I triggered so severely by what just happened? And I go, okay, that’s probably a warning sign you should pay attention to.
Another easy warning sign is I just want to quit, and I daydream about getting out and where’s the escape hatch? And I start surfing on, you know, church placement websites because I just, I wanna get out, like, I don’t like where I am. And then I think sometimes it shows up in, you know, I just daydream and fantasize about my upcoming vacation, and I’ve got a countdown clock on my computer because I’m just trying to gut it out until I can get that week or two away. And again, that week away doesn’t ever really solve everything. But, I think when those kinds of things just begin to happen, like you’re just empty. And a lot of times our spouses notice it first before anybody else. Because we might cover it up a little bit for a while, it, you know, at the church office or with our team, but usually we don’t have that filter or that mechanism to sort of let it be guarded at home. And so often our spouses see it first.
Sean:
Yeah. That is so true and a great insight. We should really be paying attention if our spouse is raising the warning flag for us. Lance, I’d like to get your opinion on something. We actually did a podcast on this topic, but I’d really like to hear your input on this. What are some of the ways that you see churches creating the conditions for burnout in how they structure their teams?
Lance:
Yeah. I mean, typically I wouldn’t say like the actual structure itself necessarily, has burnout built into it, but I think it’s, it’s more around what kind of culture do we create within those structures. So I will, like, here’s one example I think is like, often I see people having a structure where it’s like you wear multiple hats and that’s just the expectation. I even am in some churches where they’re talking about your role and then a plus one, like, what’s your plus one? So you have a full-time job and a full-time role, but we’re gonna add a plus one to it. And it’s kind of like baked into even how we think about the org structure.
Probably the most common thing I see is we constantly add without ever taking away, you know, I’ve sat with church teams and go, Hey, we’re gonna brainstorm a stop doing list. And it is so challenging to ever get a church or a church team to actually like go, no, we’re actually going to stop something or we’re going to kill it. Like, we just don’t do that in church. And so, again, we give someone a role and then we add some new initiatives, a new program or project, and then we don’t take anything out of their role, we just add it on top of them. And so the cynical side of me has this statement that I make from time to time that says, sometimes in church our mantra is more bricks, less straw.
Sean:
Oh yeah.
Lance:
We want you to get more done and we’re not gonna give you more resource or more staff or, you know, like, still want you to do everything you’re doing. Plus add something and do it. You know, with a joyful heart.
One of the thing that comes to my mind, with this is every church has built into their calendar intense seasons. And so I think one of the things that, in terms of how we structure not just the org chart, but the calendar is we have these intense seasons like Easter and Christmas, and for student ministry it’s camp season, but we don’t then compensate by going, Hey, you work 60 hours a week for three weeks getting ready for this. We love your family so much, I’m gonna expect you to actually reduce your time and take some days off. And do some comp time because we want to recognize what was asked of you during this intense season.
Sean:
And you know, this Lancet, it’s just, you know, when we’re in that whirlwind of ministry, sometimes we just, we don’t have time to think about these simple ideas that just communicate such care to our team members. So it’s so important to come up out of that whirlwind from time to time. So we can look at this or get an outside perspective like yours. I know you work with a lot of lead pastors and senior pastors on this whole area of Replenish. How would you coach a senior pastor who’s just beginning to recognize some of these early signs of burnout, but they’re not all the way there yet. They’re just starting to see them.
Lance:
Gosh, I think a couple of things come to my mind. One is I think that as senior pastors, we’re not very good about raising our hand and saying, I might need some help here. And I’m not talking about like, additional staff or extra salary. I’m just saying, I’m drowning maybe in responsibility or, you know, we’re in a capital campaign and this is just a very demanding season. I’m meeting with all those high capacity donors, and you might just need to raise your hand with your elders or with your senior leadership team and just acknowledge like, Hey, I’m beginning to feel some of the signs. And I’d love for us to be proactive in figuring out what I can do to, create some healthy rhythms that allow me not to burn out. So I think, again, for a pastor, just to have some of that internal awareness, like, man, I do find myself irritable. I’m short with people, I just don’t have the patience that I normally have. And so to begin to go, I need to raise my hand, and just acknowledge that I’m maybe a little bit over my head right now.
And the other thing I think is you gotta take ownership of your own life. And I would say to a senior pastor, you have more autonomy and control over your life and schedule than any other person on your team, you know, and in your staff. So you gotta own this for yourself. And I am responsible for my own health, and I love this Henry Cloud quote. I’ve used thousands of times now that you are ridiculously in charge of your life. And so many times I played the victim card as a senior pastor because I was a victim that it was Easter season. Or I was a victim that I was in a capital campaign, or I was in a victim because some staff member had left and I was having to pick up the slack.
And so it was easy for me to deflect and blame other circumstances rather than owning it for myself. And I would say part of the most strategic thing you can do to own it for yourself is grab your calendar by the throat. Like, yeah, you are responsible for those blocks of time. So what are you doing to proactively make sure that you are embodying the principle of work hard, but then unplug hard? And I feel like some pastors really need to have like, better clarity around what does unplug hard really mean? One in terms of just how much time and blocks of time, but even then, what am I doing to replenish myself and recuperate and recover so that I can do ministry from my best self?
And, and then one other kind of little thing I would say would be, well, it’s not a little thing, it’s actually a big thing, which is managing your technology. I think for a lot of senior pastors, you are constantly, you know, on your phone, texting, scrolling, posting on Instagram. Like I think if you are on the way to burnout, one of the things that you wanna do is begin to put some digital guidelines into your life so that you actually have space where your mind is free and where you’re not constantly plugged in.
Sean:
Oh, Lance, that is so true. And I think that technology piece, like you said, it’s such a big deal. I mean, it’s something we’re connected to almost 24 hours a day. And when you spend, I’m sure most people spend hours and hours connected to their phone at this point. And sometimes we can underestimate the impact that has on us. I’m wondering, Lance, because you’ve worked with a lot of pastors, can you give us a few examples of kind of what pastors have started or stopped doing as you’ve walked alongside them kind of to take control back of their life? Any practical examples there?
Lance:
Yeah, I think one is to actually start taking all of your vacation that the church allows you. And so even, you know, I’m, I’m constantly encouraging elder groups and boards to go, Hey, you need to be an advocate for your pastor. And part of that is making sure that they’re actually taking the vacation time that they’ve got scheduled, you know, and instead of like, yeah, we just, we were in a capital campaign and so I got one week this year instead of four. Another thing I’m seeing pastors do is putting in some, like a study break that is partially to allow them to get ready for the upcoming ministry season to hear from God but also just to have a little bit of a different rhythm in their life.
One of the biggest ones is like really getting tenacious around the practice of Sabbath. I mean, it’s just amazing to me how hard it is for us to actually have a meaningful practice of Sabbath that is a one in seven rhythm where we stop rest, worship, delight, like that we build in this day that is restorative for our souls so that we can do ministry the other days from a really healthy place.
For some of them it’s honestly about leaning into their marriages.
Sean:
Sure.
Lance:
And like making time, like for date nights or meaningful conversation or doing that trip that you and your spouse have talked about. And so I think for me, some of those are the very practical adjustments that I’m, you know, challenging pastors to make. And around technology, it’s like, have a time that you put your phone to bed every night, start your daily time instead of scrolling through the news, start with a minute or two of silence. So I’m using this Lectio app right now, and every morning the starting place is to just stop and breathe slowly for a few seconds. And it is amazing how calming that is. Rather than scrolling through some news article that just adds stress to my life. What if I actually centered my soul and slowed down and just breathed like, Wow. A lot of pastors could benefit just from that.
Sean:
Yeah. Yeah. You know, Lance, you’re talking about Sabbath and what a lot of our listeners might not know is that it was you who helped us put together our unstuck teams assessment. And, you know, one of the questions we included in that assessment is, does my leadership champion my Sabbath time? And those scores are typically high. Yeah. and then when it comes to the question that says, do I regularly take my Sabbath? It is still the second lowest scoring of all of the 72 questions on that assessment from all of the ministry leaders. So this is a real issue for us in ministry to not just value the Sabbath, but also to find ways to take the Sabbath. Lance in Replenish you say that we’ve kind of bought this lie that busyness equals importance. So how did that play out for you in the earlier season of your life? And then, and how do you see it showing up with church leaders that you serve today?
Lance:
Yeah, so again, I think, the good news is we’re really getting better at talking about some of this and realizing some of the downside of compulsive busyness and workaholism. And, but when I was growing up in ministry, busyness was completely a badge of honor. I mean, the mentality that was portrayed in pastors and sermons and church conferences was burnout for Jesus, like. And, and that was, you know, seen as a, you know, something that was good. And so what all of that did is it fueled this unhealthy ambition in me. And I feel like where this played out in an ugly way is that I didn’t have a healthy soul, but I did have a strong ambition. And so the drive to work a lot to achieve, succeed, like, you know, all of that became a part of what was the fuel in my ministry engine.
And so, and again, I would’ve said, yes, I love my family, I’m committed to my wife, but I’ve called to ministry and oh, by the way, I’m married and have kids. But really my best ambition and energy was given to building the church. And that had some really negative effects on the health of my own soul, on the health of my family relationships. And, and the truth is, a lot of my ambition, even though I wrapped it in God talk and you know, God speak, the truth is it was a lot about me, about my need to succeed, my need to be known, my need to build a great church. And so there was a lot that was in it that wasn’t very godly or very holy. And I don’t think I’m the only one that has some misdirected ambition. And I always think about James three, where James says, wherever there’s envy and selfish ambition, just mark it down. There will be disorder and every kind of evil. Yeah. Like, wow. And I saw some of that unhealthy ambition play out in some pretty unhealthy ways in my early years of ministry.
Sean:
Yeah. It’s, kind of funny, Lance. I’ve only known you, the replenished side of you, so I have a hard time even picturing what those earlier seasons of your life could have even looked like. And, and I believe you and I’ve read about them, and we’ve talked about them. And you’re also kind of an example of making that switch because you were very ambitious. You did a lot of things through those Purpose-Driven years. And so the possibility exists for us to have a much more healthy rhythm in our lives.
Lance:
Sure.
Sean:
So I wanna take our last few minutes and just talk on the solution side of things. Tell us what do you need to keep yourself out of burnout and to stay replenished?
Lance:
Yeah. I think there’s an internal and external journey with this. And again, churches are doing a better job at going, Hey, we value Sabbath. We want you to have Sabbath. We wanna create space for you to have Sabbath. But individuals are having a hard time really embracing that. And I think part of my journey was asking myself like, why, what’s, what’s the barrier inside of me that is keeping me from practicing this? And I think one of the big issues is around insecurity and people pleasing. Right? I’m afraid if I take that vacation that people are gonna criticize me. They’re gonna think I’m not working hard enough. The board is going to, you know, judge me in some way, or people aren’t gonna like me as well because I kinda like being known as the workaholic and that. Hey, you can always depend on Lance, he’ll get it done. And that feeds something unhealthy in me. And then so, but that internal insecurity will keep me from a healthy rhythm of life.
Now as I address the internal stuff, I also have to focus, I have to create some external systems that, you know, are healthy. I remember just this week I was reading James Clear, Atomic Habits guy, and his quote was, you are not your grand plans. You are your daily patterns. And I thought that’s so good because all of us need to structure some daily and weekly and monthly and annual patterns that set us up to have healthy, rhythms. And so I think, again, it goes back to owning it, owning your calendar, beginning to do some of the hard internal work around insecurities that keep you from burning out. And then I guess the last thing I would just say is I would, I would love to sit down with a pastor, look him or her in the eye, and just say to them, you need to embrace delight. Most leaders I know are delight deficient.
Sean:
Wow.
Lance:
And we don’t have enough delight in our lives. And, you know, ministry and pastoring your church is not your whole life.
Sean:
Right.
Lance:
I mean, God gave you five senses, not just for functional reasons, but he gave you eyes so that you could see things of beauty. He gave you ears so that you could hear a wonderful music and be moved emotionally. He gave you taste so you could savor wonderful food. Like, right? All those things, like those are delight things, not just functional things. And I’m just finding in my 20 year journey of this, that the more authentic delight. Now I’m not talking about escape or self-medicating myself with experiences, but I’m talking about true delight that makes me a better person. That when I put those into my life, I’m a better pastor and I’m a better husband and I’m a better grandfather, I’m a better Christ follower. And so I would just say, pastor, work really hard, sacrifice for the kingdom, but make sure you create moments where you experience true delight.
Sean:
Lance, that is so good. Thank you for being on the podcast today for sharing these insights. I really do think they’re gonna help a lot of church leaders. So thank you.
Well, I hope you got something out of that conversation with Lance. I know I do. Every single time I chat with him. And, honestly, I think the part of this conversation with him that stuck out to me the most is how easy it is to fake fine, especially in ministry, you know, we’re the ones that people come to for help, we’re the ones with he answers, right? So admitting, hey, I’m not doing okay right now is hard, but if you wait too long to say it, burnout doesn’t just knock on the door. It kicks your door in.
And that Henry Cloud line, we are ridiculously in charge of our lives—that’s a good one. Because if I’m being honest, I’ve had seasons where I gave that control away without even realizing it. You know, it’s just saying yes to everything, trying to keep people happy, running really hard, but not actually leading myself well, and I’ve seen the same thing in pastors that we work with all the time, high capacity leaders that get completely drained, but they still keep pushing forward, like, nothing’s wrong.
So let me just flip that question back to you for a second. If you’re starting to feel those early signs of burnout or maybe you’re already there, what are you doing about it? Not someday, not when things slow down like this week or we talk all the time about working on your ministry, you know, instead of just being consumed by it. But maybe the real question today is, when was the last time you worked on you? For some of you, that might mean getting serious about the Sabbath. Again, for others, it’s taking your calendar back before it takes you out. Maybe it’s finally booking that vacation and actually unplugging when you do, or cutting the plus one responsibilities that you never should have been yours in the first place. Maybe it’s pruning ministry, you know, building a real stop-doing list or resetting your rhythms daily, weekly, monthly. So you’re not starting every morning with a screen in front of your face on and just chaos in your head. And for some of you it might be rediscovering what brings you joy again.
Here’s the bottom line. Don’t just listen to this and then move on. Take five minutes, pray about it, name that next step, and then actually put it on the calendar because nobody’s gonna drift towards health. If you don’t lead yourself there, no one else is gonna do it for you.
Well, I just wanna say thank you for joining us for this week’s podcast and, you know, if these conversations around your team’s organizational structure and how that impacts burnout and just your overall capacity as a team, if these are hitting close to home for you, these are the things that we help churches with every single week. We’d love to have a conversation about how to better structure your team and get your whole team on a trajectory towards health. So you can reach out to us by just going to theunstuckgroup.com and starting a conversation there. Don’t forget, if you haven’t yet to subscribe, to get our podcast show notes. There’s lots of helpful resources in there as well, and you can subscribe to get those at theunstuckgroup.com/podcast. Next week, we’re back with a conversation to finish up this series on structured for burnout. So until then, we hope you have a great week.
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