Own Your Role in Breaking the Growth Barrier (Part 1)
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You know the story: the numbers rise, then stall. Two steps forward, one step back. Maybe your church has a history of hovering around a number—a familiar attendance line you just can’t seem to cross. Or, maybe a rapid growth season occurs, but eventually, something—people, systems, culture—plateaus the momentum and drifts you right back to where you started.
Sound familiar?
In this new series, we tackle the real reasons churches stall out and what it takes to lead past them. We’ll help you push past the barrier you’re facing now… and the one after that… by equipping the senior leaders of the church (lead pastor, executive pastor and board members) to own their unique roles in helping the church break the barrier you’re facing.
In this episode, the focus is on the 200 and 500 attendance barriers. Sean and I are joined by Chad Hunt, who has been on our consulting team since 2015 and has helped hundreds of church navigate these barriers, to discuss how each senior leader can be equipped to break through.
Pastors and leaders have to learn how to give their ear to the vision and mission, not the preference of the congregation. [episode 412] #unstuckchurch Share on X When the wrong person or the wrong people have decision-making rights, it removes permission for the pastor to lead. [episode 412] #unstuckchurch Share on X If your church is only reaching Christians, you’re not really on mission. [episode 412] #unstuckchurch Share on X You can’t invest in people when you’re trying to invest everywhere. [episode 412] #unstuckchurch Share on X
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Visit planningcenter.com to get started for free.
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More Episodes In This Series
Own Your Role: Breaking the MultiStuck Barrier – Episode 415
Own Your Role: Breaking the 2000 Barrier – Episode 414
Own Your Role: Breaking the 1000 Barrier – Episode 413
Transcript
Sean:
Well, hey, podcast listeners. Before we start today’s episode, let me tell you about our podcast sponsor Planning Center. Are you struggling to keep your church organized and connected? Planning Center is the all-in-one church management software that solves your administrative challenges. You can effortlessly track first-time guests, manage volunteer schedules, and create easy ways for your congregation to get involved, all from a single platform. Whether you need a check-in system, event signups, or an online giving solution. Planning Center helps you nurture your community and keep people connected. Visit planningcenter.com to get started for free.
Well, welcome to the Unstuck Church Podcast. I’m Sean, your host here with my teammate Amy Anderson and my teammate Chad Hunt. Welcome to the podcast, Chad.
Chad:
Thanks, Sean. Great to be here.
Sean:
Good to have you here.
Chad:
Yeah.
Sean:
Well, today we’re kicking off a brand new series about a common experience in churches. It’s hitting growth barriers, and we’ve had so many churches bumping up against growth barriers in the last couple of years. It’s not a new topic in our content, but with the next four episodes, we’re gonna try to take a little bit different approach to it. We wanna talk more than about the little steps that your church might need to take. We wanna actually help you own your specific role in breaking the barrier.
Amy:
Yeah. And Sean, if I can jump in, what makes this conversation important is that these barriers, they are not just about numbers. They represent structural, cultural, and leadership shifts that need to happen for greater health and for growth in the church.
Sean:
That’s right. And today our focus is on the 200 and 500 attendance barriers that so many churches struggle to break through. And actually, Chad is joining us today because he’s been on our consulting team since way back in 2015. Chad, that makes you old at this point.
Chad:
I know; I feel it.
Sean:
And he’s helped hundreds, I mean, literally hundreds of churches in the last 10 years navigate these kinds of transitions.
Chad:
Yeah. In addition to the consulting, I’ve also, Sean, if you remember, I’ve been an executive pastor. I’ve been a lead pastor for almost 25 years, and so in rural Kentucky. So I’ve been able to lead through these transitions myself. That makes it incredibly helpful for other churches. Matter of fact, when I serve smaller churches, that’s their first question. Have you ever had any experience in working with small churches? I’m like, I’m from Kentucky. What do you mean? So, yeah. Heck yeah. I’ve had lots of churches, but yeah.
So, you know, when I, when I think about the commonality of these churches, I hear pastors say this so many times when I serve a church on site, it’s like every time we get to a certain number, whether it’s 200, 500, 300, you know, we find ourselves, we think we’re there, and then we go two steps back. It’s funny; it kind of reminds me of Candy Land that my daughter used to play.
Sean:
Oh, yeah. I loved that.
Chad:
Yeah. So, you know the objective is to get to the goal, the top where I think the pot of candy is, whatever. But every now and then you draw a card that takes you back to start. I feel like that’s like what pastors do. They feel like that they’re almost there. They could see the finish line, we’re gonna break this barrier, and then out of nowhere they draw this card that says back to start. And they just keep hitting their head against it. And it really can be frustrating those return to start moments, especially when you really feel like that you have the momentum, the energy, and then just to start all over. So I’ve lived it and I’ve led through it, and yeah, it’s a fun place, but also a tough place to be.
Sean:
My mom would be so happy you brought up Candy Land. I love that game as a kid.
Chad:
It’s still classic.
Sean:
That shows my age now too at this point. Yep. Alright, enough of that. Let’s jump into the content. So today we’re focused on those two barriers small churches commonly hit: 200 and 500 in attendance. So Chad, what are some of the key tensions that are starting to emerge at each of these barriers?
Chad:
Yeah, it’s funny that I love the fact that we’re talking about the 200 barrier, because that’s really when things have to start shifting at that number. Because it’s at that point that churches require this fundamental shift in how they operate, how they function. And smaller churches, there’s often this deeply held value that everyone should know everyone. I see this all the time, which creates this family-like atmosphere. That sounds warm and fuzzy, but at the end of the day, it really does limit growth. Whenever a church is small, the lead pastor, the senior pastor, he typically does all in all the ministry. He knows everyone’s name. I’ve been there, done that.
Sean:
Yeah.
Chad:
He makes every visit, he is at the hospital, he’s teaching all the classes. But once you get to that 200 mark, if those things don’t shift, it’s literally impossible to lead beyond it. Because the pastor, you know, and there, here’s the struggle, here’s why a lot of churches don’t, is that, that 200 mark, because the, especially if that pastor has been there up to the 200 mark, they’re usually super sensitive to the voice of the people. And rightly so because when the church is 70, 100, the congregational voice is just super loud. And while their intentions are typically well meant, the motive is really to, we mentioned this just a moment ago, their motive is typically to protect that family environment of the church.
I just recently served a church, matter of fact, that was hovering around that 200 mark. They were outta space. So we had this conversation about going to two services during our planning time. One of the guys in the room, one of the team members in the room, the first comment just out the door was, wait a minute, we can’t go to two services. If we do that, there’s no way we’ll know everyone. We won’t see everyone. We can’t know all our people. I even had one guy said, that’s like dividing the church. And my response was, listen, I pray that you never know everyone.
Amy:
That’s a good word.
Chad:
I pray that your church reaches so many people. And that you, you have so many people having faith experiences with Jesus, that you need many services. And pastors and leaders have to learn how to give their ear to the vision and mission, not the preference of the congregation. That’s so vital. It’s 200 mark. Again, the intent of family church where everyone knows everyone sounds nice, but that mentality will not drive the biblical mission of the church, if that makes sense.
Sean:
Yeah. That’s good, Chad. Yeah, it does.
Amy:
Well said. Any other tensions that you see emerge in this early phase?
Chad:
You know, at the 200 mark, a lot of churches that are at that 200 mark, they feel like they operate like a democratic model. This democracy and decision-making rights become a struggle. And when decision making rights gets complicated, you know, especially in churches of 200, it really can frustrate movement and growth because there is this, this idea that smaller churches think that everyone should have a voice, or that you need a consensus, right, for any needed change.
Sean, I mentioned this in one of our team calls last week, I was just in a, I won’t name the church, but I was just at a church serving, and this was a church that was, they were doing relatively well. They, again, they were fluctuating back and forth, but I remember one of the conversations was they were outta space. And so the pastor, as I was touring the facility, he pulled me to the side and he said, “See all these pews?” He said, “We voted twice to go from pews to chairs.” And that was the easy solution. Instead of adding a service and requiring more volunteers, if they added chairs, it was really gonna enhance their seating capacity. Unfortunately, though, their structure required the church to vote on it. So as a result, he informed me that they voted it down the last two times.
Sean:
Oh my.
Chad:
And he said, one person in particular said to him, you know, this is what we were raised in. These were the pews that we set on, and we don’t wanna lose that. And, you know, unfortunately, when the wrong person or the wrong people have decision-making rights, it removes permission for the pastor to lead. And then it cripples action to move the church forward. Because the last time I checked the mission of the church isn’t about me. It’s not about me-ish. It’s not about what we, it’s about how do we make space? How do we make room for other people to find and follow Jesus? And while the pastor, typically, that’s in most pastor’s heart, they want that, you know, they have to learn to make sure that decision making rights are properly aligned so that the right people can make the right decisions in those moments.
Amy:
Yeah. Would it be fair to say, Chad, that if a smaller church like this ever has dreams or feel God is calling them to reach 300, 400 and they have a governance where everyone is voting, they will not be able to break that barrier likely if they don’t change their governance model? Is that true?
Chad:
Oh my gosh. So true. Matter of fact, I tell churches all the time, I say this to churches at all levels, at 200, 500, 900, there comes a time that better preaching, better kids’ ministry and better worship will not grow the church. If you don’t have the right infrastructure and the right organizational strategy in place, you may see new people come. But sustainability just becomes a foreign element. Because you have to have the right decision making rights. You have to have the right people in the right seats on the bus. Everyone has to understand that as well.
And so, governance oftentimes is the kryptonite that just keeps churches from moving forward. And we know this because we are all in churches, but I mean, how often do we see churches that have to go through seven committees to make a decision that should be made at a pastor level or at least a board level.
Amy:
Right.
Sean:
Right, yep.
Chad:
And all that does is it eats up the economy of time. And when the time economy becomes, when that becomes eaten up, then all of a sudden things begin to move slower, momentum begins to drain. And then we find ourselves just in this autopilot of hoping things get better.
Amy:
And by the way, if you’re a lead pastor listening today, and you’re in a situation where you’re in a governance scenario where everyone’s voting and everything, by the way, it reminds me of Lance Witt going, that’d be like all the people on the plane voting on what the pilot should do next. Okay? That plane’s gonna crash long before we come to consensus on that. Anyways, I think you should bring this podcast to your board. And there’s several other podcast resources we have around governance to really pause and just get at that. Because if you don’t get at that, all the other work is what I’m hearing from you, Chad, it ultimately won’t matter if we don’t get the governance right.
Chad:
Yeah, that’s so true. So good.
Amy:
All right. Let me shift this. What about churches that have broken the 200 barrier, Chad, but now they’re getting stuck around 500. What different tensions emerge there?
Chad:
Well, first of all, kudos to all those churches that have done that, because in my personal experience as a lead pastor and working with churches, that’s a really tough thing to do to break 200 and move to 500. But when we see churches that are stuck at 500 or they’re fluctuating, they’re hitting that lead to going back and forth. I work with several, many churches in this particular attendance range.
Typically, what I find is most of these churches still are maintaining this insider focus. Their programming, their language, their culture seems to cater to people who already attend, which makes it super hard for newcomers, especially those who are outside of faith to connect. Now, they don’t see it; it’s not like it’s intentional. It’s just this natural gravitation that happens. And with pastors, you know, again, not intentional, but their teaching often becomes laser focused on biblical knowledge without the application to everyday lives, the relevance. There is this expectation that everyone in the room is well read in scripture and understands all the traditions and practices and all the things of a Sunday experience. And that’s just not the case at 500. If it is the case, you’re just reaching a bunch of Christians and you’re really not on mission anyway.
But when you begin to reach those outside of faith, there has to be this, this mentality that not everyone in the room knows the difference between Job and job. You just have to have that. Yeah. It’s true. I mean, they just, people just, they just assume. I hear it all the time. Well, we all have heard the story of Jonah. Well have we? Because that’s the assumption that everyone’s read the book of Jonah. Don’t think, I hope it’s not the case. ’cause I hope we’re reaching unchurched people.
One of the other tensions that I see in churches that are hovering at that 500 and just can’t seem to break through it, is just the ministry environments. They really aren’t expecting guests. Again, it’s the language, it’s the next steps. It’s the serving opportunities. They’re all built and wired for people who already know Jesus. And so, when we think about reaching new people, newcomers, whether they’re brand new to faith, or yet to have a faith experience, we just have to be careful to make sure that that language makes sense to the people we’re reaching.
For example, I remember one of the churches I’ve served lately, we were talking about, you know, what’s that first step for newcomers? And it was so funny because their first step was they needed to go to a class called koinonia. Now, if you’re a, a pastor, you know that koinonia is the Greek word for communion or fellowship. Now for the church that made perfect sense. We can all clap about it and things like that. But for someone who’s brand new and wants to hang out with new people, I can’t imagine inviting a newcomer who’s never read the Bible, had a faith experience to a class called koinonia. ’cause I’m sure they’re gonna be like, Kona, what? What does that even mean?
Sean:
Yeah.
Chad:
You know? So why not use Andy Stanley’s Starting Point? Or why not use something new? Or just something, just that common language. So yeah. So the guests, the ministry environments, all those things, we just have to be super careful that we don’t gravitate and become wired for people who already know Jesus, because that is just, that’s just a disconnect for those people that we’re trying to reach.
Amy:
Let’s, let’s take that just a step further. So for the church that has new people coming and they actually show up for the weekend experience, what do you encourage churches at that size to do for next steps?
Chad:
That’s a great question, Amy. And, you know, especially when it comes to next steps, because at the end of the day, whatever your next steps are really do determine whether or not people become connected to the life of the church. I tell churches all the time, while the pastor’s job is primarily like that’s the centerpiece of the weekend, whoever is communicating those next steps on the weekend, it’s almost equally as important because that communication, those next steps, how they’re languaged up, how they’re wired, all those things can really determine whether or not people have a faith connection, connected to the life of the church. So whenever I see churches that have their next step as a membership class or things like that, that’s super insider focused, I can tell from the very, like, on the very front end of that conversation that they’re gonna have to rethink and think about how can we create steps that make sense to the people we’re trying to reach?
For example, what if a first step, instead of a class, which by the way, no one wants to go to, I don’t even wanna go to it.
Amy:
Right.
Chad:
What if the first step is just, hey, meet the team, not the pastor. ’cause the pastor can be scary to a new person. He has God’s cell phone number. He may know my stuff, you know? So what if we just meet the team? What if the second step is, hey, just kind of discover who we are, just a q and a and a casual coffee and couch environment. There’s so many ways that you can, that you can build that so that the people, you’re reaching these new people.
Here’s what I tell churches all the time, especially churches of 500, get away from the insider language. Create a step that people can take. Because here’s the reality. Every time you can create a step for someone to take, it will give them courage to take a deeper step and then a deeper step. And then a deeper step.
Sean:
Sure.
Chad:
And so you have to look at it through that lens. If not, you may see people showing up, but your back door is as large as your front door because people just aren’t connecting.
Amy:
You know, Chad, some of the things I hear once in a while about churches in that 500 spot, really any size now that I think about it, is they’ll tell me, Amy, we are seeing so many new people every weekend, or we’re just seeing new people every weekend, but our numbers are not reflecting growth. You know, like, what are we doing wrong? What’s happening? Why aren’t we seeing growth? What would you say to that church?
Chad:
Yeah. That’s a great question. And I, you know, it’s, and I’m sure you guys have heard this before, but one thing I always get when it comes to attendance, well, if everyone showed up at the same time, blah, blah, blah, you know, we would’ve this many.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
Yes.
Chad:
Well, we’re not counting that, so don’t count. But that’s a great question. And typically, what’s happening with churches at 500, you know, if they’re at 500, they’re doing some things, right? They’re at 500, so they’re reaching people. They’re, you know, typically have good worship, good communication, things like that. But in order for churches to push past push past 500, that’s my number, right or wrong, made up or not. I always say, churches at 500, once you hit that mark, you have to have different systems, different strategies for retention.
If not, your back door is just as big, if not larger than your front door. Now, when I say systems and strategies, I’m talking specifically about those next steps. If the next steps for new people, newcomers to your church are super churchy, or they have language that’s not understood, or they’re not relevant, it’s super hard for those people to become connected to the life of the church.
And so, at the end of the day, you know, I’ve always told pastors, while that job is primarily super important, the second primary job that’s almost equal is that person that’s offering what those steps are, how they say it, what the language looks like ’cause that’s what makes the difference in people taking steps, becoming, becoming connected to the life of the church. Matter of fact, I love what, Gary Mcintosh says. Gary Mcintosh, who did a lot of research, said that in order for a new person to become fully assimilated into the body of Christ, to a church, they need to make at least seven relationships within the first six months of attending. That doesn’t happen if we don’t have the right next steps in place.
Sean:
True. Yeah.
Amy:
It never cease to amaze me when I would do onsite, secret shopper kind of thing, to give some fresh eyes perspective to pastors. And this is back, you know, and they would hand out programs. But today it could be in the slides that are running pre-service, every next step, the headlines are come to a membership class. Get in a group, sign up for a serve team. Those are big leaps. And so I love, Chad, how you’re bringing kind of the focus back to what are the smaller next steps that you need to take.
Sean:
All right. So, Chad, we’ve already started to sprinkle this in a little bit through the conversation, but what do church need leaders really need to do if they want to get growth going again in their churches? What are the first few steps a senior pastor should take if they wanna break through, let’s start with the 200 barrier.
Chad:
Well, Sean, first of all, I think it’s key that pastors begin identifying three to five potential leaders who can take ownership of ministry areas that they’re leading, that they’re handling. And in addition to that, you know, Amy talked about some of the responsibilities at the beginning of the podcast being the leader of leaders and the spiritual oversight. They have to be willing to invest deeply in them, you know, and if they’re wearing 75 hats, you can’t invest in people when you’re trying to invest everywhere. So that’s important.
Sean:
Yeah.
Chad:
Also just restructuring the teaching that consistently includes practical applications, next steps after the sermon, making it impossible for anyone to leave without knowing what to do with what they just heard. That means the messages need to be relevant, and they need to be real. They need to be intentional.
And then lastly, I would say, begin shifting your calendar just to spend more time developing leaders and less time doing the ministry yourself. You know, Ephesians 4:11 and 12 says, we have to be equippers. I mean, for a lead pastor that really needs to be at that high level leadership capacity. And by the way, I just wanna throw this out there for the pastors who are listening, there’s a huge difference in finding leaders and developing them. Finding them when they’re there, you know, that takes some time. But developing them requires time, effort, and relationship. If you think about good examples, the apostle Peter, when Jesus found Peter, he wasn’t Peter the apostle. He was Peter. Peter, the fisherman who smelled like tuna and cussed a little. Three years later, he became everything that he wanted to be in the gospels. He became Peter, the apostolic leader, because Jesus invested.
And so when pastors are having to wear, when their calendar keeps them so busy, they don’t have time to relationally invest in the people around them, the leaders. That’s how we develop leaders is investing time relationally and helping them to grow. So those are three key areas that I think pastors can start looking at right now. Identify those leaders, look at their teaching, their communication, making sure it’s relevant and intentional. And then lastly, just spending that time to really develop and pour into those whom God has put around them.
Amy:
I love that you called that out, because I think if someone is really underwater, if a lead pastor is with all the busyness. And they hear, find four or five leaders, it’d be quick just to find those leaders and kind of wash your hands. And you’re saying, no, there’s not immediate relief because now you have to shift some of that energy to actually develop and pour into them. Which brings me back actually, when we talk, think about the church board again. What suggestions do you have for pastors when you’re thinking about the board members at a church that side?
Chad:
Yeah, great question, Amy. One of the first things I would say is that, you know, board members need to really work well with the pastor. That relationship, the relationship between the lead pastor and the board is critical for the success of the church. I mean, that can really just stifle or stall ministry and stall vision. You know, one way that can do that is to make sure that they clarify decision making processes, determining what decisions need board approval versus staff decision. So that’s so important for the board and the pastor to make sure there’s a lot of clarity around that. Tony would always say that clarity is kindness, and there’s not a place that kindness is needed more than the relationship than the lead pastor and their leadership board.
A second thing is just to evaluate current ministries through the lens of effectiveness rather than just tradition. In other words, let’s not just do things because we’ve always done ’em, but what are we willing to stop doing if it’s not producing results? That’s a great question. Just ensuring that all the things that the church that they’re financing, that they’re resourcing, that they’re putting energy into, assuring that the results that they’re producing are kingdom results. And I think that when the board has that lens, ’cause the pastor usually always has it, that’s just the heart of the lead pastor. But the leadership board needs that as well. When those two come together, that is a massive machine of actionable movement and results.
And then lastly, I would say, you know, just championing that outside focus, that outward focus by consistently asking that question, how will this help the people we’re trying to reach who aren’t here yet? And every decision, you know, when it comes to budget, you know, typically boards approve budgets. When we’re financing budget, a good question is, are the things that we’re approving, are these things actually gonna drive reaching people, that are, you know, on the mission field, people who are outside of faith. And so when you have that kind of health injected in a leadership board, it is phenomenal what happens in the kingdom. And we all know the churches we see that are just crushing it. That’s almost a common denominator.
Amy:
Yes. It is.
Chad:
Is the leadership board and the lead pastor all have that mission lens of reaching people and ensuring things or producing the results that’s impacting the kingdom.
Amy:
I’m sure some pastors are listening right now and going, if we could get our board to that level where they’re actually with me on ensuring we’re sticking to our mission and our purpose as a church but for both reaching and discipling, if I didn’t have to battle my board on protecting traditions and sacred cows, if they were aligned, that is the engine. You’re right. That is the engine for a church to break through that barrier.
Chad:
I tell pastors all the time that have maybe some, you know, boards that are a struggle, I’ll say, there’s two things I need you to do. I need you to pray for provision and pruning. God provide the right board members and prune those who shouldn’t be there. And prayer, you know, as we all said before, despite strategies and plans and all those things, prayer is the number one strategy. Without it, nothing happens. And that’s especially true when it comes to selecting or populating leadership boards in a church.
Sean:
That’s good. Chad, let’s move on to the 500 barrier. We started talking about that earlier. What, what would you encourage pastors just kind of a few key steps as they’re leading through that season in their church?
Chad:
Yeah, and I, we’ve said this a few times already, just about the whole insider focus thing. That, again, it’s just that no one plans it, we just kinda land there. But just deliberately shifting from that insider focus to that newcomer focus, looking at the weekend experience through the lens of someone who has no church background, never had a faith experience. You know, and I suggest having these conversations, at least bimonthly, some may monthly, but I feel like, you know, 60 days gives you a good time to get a good assessment. When I look at churches that are stuck between 200 and 500, typically they have poor or insider flavored reach strategies, which results in reaching Christians, not people outside of faith.
Sean:
Yeah.
Chad:
We talked a minute ago about the sermon content and, and churches of 500. This is very important. You know, pastors and leaders must assume there’s new people in the room. They must invite people into the conversations. Removing that feeling of exclusion. I was literally at a church just last week, and one thing that kept coming up during our planning time is actually a health assessment. But during our conversation is the pastor and those on stage, they kept, they kept saying, we always refer to it as the family. They would say, say things like, Hey, we’re holding this outreach. We want everyone who’s a part of our church family to support this and to attend. Well, that’s nice if you’re part of the family, but if you’re the new person, you automatically, you’ve just excluded them.
I tell pastors all the time, when you’re preaching, you need to always say on the front end of the service, especially churches of 500, we know there’s unchurched people there. You need to always say on the front end, Hey, listen, maybe you’re here today and you’re just kicking the tires on faith. Listen, you can kick the tires. You don’t have to buy the car. We would love for you to be a part of this conversation. Just inviting them into the conversation. And what that does is it sends the message to everyone in the room, it’s okay not to be a Christian. We’re still glad you’re here. And it’s teaching your congregation that if I bring my unchurch friend, it’s a safe place for them to come. So in many ways, it becomes a driver of your invite culture and your invite strategy.
For pastors that are hovering around that 500 feel stuck, here’s the two things that I really think you should lean into. Audit your weekend experience. Make sure your language, your communication, all of those things are relevant to the people you’re trying to reach. And then secondly is just streamline your programming. Do fewer things with greater excellence rather than maintaining too many mediocre ministry options. Because when you do that, it just takes the quality away from the things that really matter and the thing that’s gonna move the needle the most in your church.
Amy:
I’d say again, we do see a lot of churches at this size with the beginnings of a lot of over programming. A lot of, spirit of addition and not subtraction. And if you don’t nip this quality here, you’re gonna be in that situation when you’re trying to hit the 1000 barrier or the 2000 barrier. Real quick, Chad, any specific suggestions for board members who are, you know, in the seats of the board and they’re trying to help their pastor or break the 500 seat barrier?
Chad:
Yeah, I would just say to the board members is please give your pastor permission to lead. I mean, he or she has to have that. I mean, in smaller churches, it’s not uncommon for board members to be the voice of vision. But at 500, I mean, the lead pastor has to be the lead visionary with the council and the wisdom of the board obviously that’s why that relationship’s so important. But at the end of the day, the pastor just has to lead. And the board just needs to support that. Again, when those things happen together, when they’re coupled together, it’s powerful.
On that note, providing accountability to the pastor is another really important role of the board. I mean, good accountability is key for the success of any pastor. Approving budgets, protecting policies, theology, things like that are common areas of leadership boards where they bring accountability. But I will tell you another place that is so often overlooked and even neglected sometimes, but just as important, is ensuring that the lead pastor, the senior pastor, is staying healthy by helping them guard their calendars. Getting rest and taking away for rest, recreation and self-development. Sometimes the board is about the only one that can make that happen ’cause pastors we’re workaholics.
Sean:
Amy, so you’ve used this concept, and I’ve heard you kind of talk through this several times, the idea of a swing thought. Would you share with our listeners what a swing thought is?
Amy:
Yeah, of course. Every time we hope that people who are listening to this podcast, we hope you can walk away with a clear next step. And what I love about Chad is he has worked with so many churches, he has learned so many things, and he can get more words per minute in than most of us. So I bet our listeners are like, that was a lot.
Sean:
Yeah.
Amy:
Now what do I do? And so this is where the concept of a swing thought comes in. And how I describe this is that my husband golfs every week; he’s in a men’s league. And I golf like once a year. But I love to golf. I don’t watch the reels though. I don’t practice putting. So when we go out and golf once a year and I get this weird lie, I’ll just say to Jason, like, remind me how to hit this. And he’ll make sure like, I’ve got a good stance for my golf shot and I’ve got the club face, however it’s supposed to be. But then he’ll just look at me and he’ll say, I just want you to put all your weight on your back foot as you hit this ball.
Chad:
I love it.
Amy:
So that’s what I do love do. That’s my swing thought. I just think you’re putting all my weight on my back foot. And I, and for this particular shot, it rolls up on the green. I look like I’m on tour. And here’s what he doesn’t do. He doesn’t say, you know, put your weight on your back foot. Make sure your nose is over the end of the club. Don’t grip the club too tight. Pretend there’s a towel under your left arm. Keep your right arm straight and now count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 as you swing. Because that would be a classic Amy Anderson wormburner. Okay?
So I’d like to conclude each of the podcasts in this series with really just a summary swing thought that we can leave pastors with as they process all the content. So Chad, as you think about the 200 barrier swing thought for a senior pastor, what is it for him? What or her, what do they need to be thinking about? What’s the swing thought? Alright,
Chad:
Alright, well for the senior pastor, here’s the swing thought. Do what only you can do. As a pastor, you really need to focus on where you add unique value. Only you can do what you do. Typically, that’s vision casting, teaching, building systems that allow others to thrive in their areas of gifting. You’re the only one who can really do that as the lead pastor. And for the board, your swing thought is not everyone gets a vote. And I know that can be difficult because you’re so used to it if you’re at that church. But the board needs to get clear on its roles and what it is and what it isn’t, and who’s responsible for what and who has decision making rights. Those are two key things that really summarizes everything we’ve talked about today.
Sean:
That’s good. And then what would be different than Chad for churches trying to break that 500 barrier?
Chad:
So for the senior pastor of 500, here’s your swing thought: cast vision for reaching the outsider. That’s huge. Equip ministry leaders to audit the insider language everywhere and equip them to expect guests.
Amy:
Yep.
Chad:
And for the board that’s a leadership board of a church of 500, here’s your swing thought. Have the pastor’s back. It’s so important the pastor has to lead change and you have to fully support it. You are his or her cover.
Sean:
That’s really good. Alright, so let’s wrap up today’s conversation. Chad, I’m gonna start with you first and the name you want to hear from you two. What are your final thoughts as we wrap up episode one of this brand new series?
Chad:
Well, I mean, I can tell you and what we, if you’re a pastor, you know this, you’re gonna resonate with this. But breaking through these barriers isn’t about growth for growth’s sake. It’s about removing obstacles that prevent your church from reaching more people with the gospel. That’s what this is about. Not about numbers. Also, the transitions aren’t gonna happen overnight. They require patience, persistence, and a willingness to weather some resistance. That’s gonna happen. If this were easy, every church would be full. And lastly, Sean, I would just say, remember that what got you here won’t get you there. The leadership approaches that worked at one size won’t necessarily work at this next level, and that’s gonna have to continually as you grow. So just remember those things going forward.
Amy:
Isn’t that true? Each time you grow, your leadership has to shift. And let me just add again, I think these transitions that you’ve been suggesting, Chad, they’re just deeply personal for leaders, right? They require identity shifts and letting go of control and that can be uncomfortable. But necessary for growth. Sean, you’re kind of a control freak, you relate with that, right? Letting stuff go it’s hard.
Sean:
I do. Yes. Thank you for calling me out publicly, but yes, you’re absolutely right.
Amy:
You’re welcome. One of my favorite things about you, and churches that successfully navigate these barriers, here’s what they do. They do maintain their core values while being willing to change their methods. Right? Mission has to trump methods at any size of church. One of my favorite quotes that came from The Unstuck Church, when our friend and author Tony Morgan wrote, he called out again, “You might be doing the work of God, but not the work he called you to do.” And that’s the challenge I see when some of these methods get put into kind of that foundational level, right? That becomes our mantra. We can’t change those things. No, you should be changing methods whenever it’s necessary. The mission doesn’t change. But those of us who are so stuck on methods, we’re probably doing the work of God, but probably not the work that God has called us to.
So hold tightly to that mission that God’s called your church to. And finally, as you navigate these changes, I would just do a quick reminder. And Chad, you said it like this doesn’t happen overnight, so don’t forget to celebrate the wins along the way. You know, both the numerical growth, those are fun things to celebrate, but celebrate the leadership development shifts that are starting to happen. Celebrate the small wins. And just, I think if those lead pastors and those board members embrace those swing thoughts, there’s gonna be unity and momentum to actually help you get there and break through this barrier.
Sean:
Excellent. Well, listeners, thanks for joining us for this episode. If you’d like to go deeper, join us September 18th at 1:00 PM Eastern for a free live webinar. After the webinar, I really think you’re gonna feel confident and committed to take, we’re gonna say one bold move towards breaking the barrier you’re facing right now. And this isn’t about growing just for sake of numbers. It’s about removing those obstacles like Chad talked about, that prevent your church from reaching more people with the gospel. So you can sign up for that webinar at theunstuckgroup.com/webinar.
And if you’re a church leader facing these growth barriers, we’d love to help. Our team has worked with hundreds of churches of all sizes to help them find alignment, get unstuck, and make a greater kingdom impact overall. You can visit theunstuckgroup.com to learn more, and to connect with us. And tune in next week for part two of this brand new series. We’ll see you then.
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