Pressing Questions for Pastors in 2023
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Our goal for The Unstuck Church Podcast is to answer the most pressing and relevant questions that pastors are asking. When our team sits down to plan our content series, that’s where we start—by discussing: What’s on the heart and minds of pastors today?
That’s why we’re dedicating a whole series to “Pressing Questions for Pastors in 2023.” The first episodes of this series are answering some of the known questions pastors are wondering about in this season (based on our experience serving hundreds of churches):
- Digital Strategy & Volunteer Engagement – Episode 300
- Increasing Engagement & Reaching the Next Generation – Episode 301
Then we opened things up to our listeners for the final episode of the series:
SUCCESSION PLANNING & MAKING BOLD MOVES
According to our recent data, more than one in every four churches is actively planning for pastoral succession. And when that many churches are focused on transition, it can lead to a lack of focus on the vision over time.
In this episode, Amy and I kick off our new series answering some of the most pressing questions we hear from church leaders with a conversation on succession planning and making bold moves. Join us as we discuss:
- Why pastors avoid the topic of succession
- 5 mantras for a healthy succession
- Casting vision vs. identifying bold moves
- How to determine your next bold moves as a church
Your congregation today is not your pre-pandemic congregation. And your mission is more than just a statement on your wall. In this webinar, Tony Morgan & Amy Anderson will teach you the practical strategies needed to reignite your church’s passion and purpose for living on mission in this season.
This Episode Is Sponsored by PlainJoe Studios:
PlainJoe: A Storyland Studio partners with churches, nonprofits, faith-based organizations, and educational environments to create unforgettable strategic, digital, and spatial stories that lift the Spirit. Their team of talented designers, architects, and specialists can assist you with services such as brand development, building projects, custom web development, and more. Their approach to designing custom experiences is both fun-loving and professional, enabling pastors and leaders to enjoy the process while advancing their ministry.
And here’s some exciting news – PlainJoe is hosting the PlainJoe Design Intervention giveaway, where one winner will receive the grand prize: 200 hours of design services from PlainJoe, for free! Visit plainjoestudios.com for more information. And if you’re ready to rethink your buildings, logos, or website experience to take your organization to the next level, consider PlainJoe.
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Transcript
Sean (00:02):
Welcome to The Unstuck Church Podcast, where each week we are exploring what it means to be an unstuck church. According to recent data, more than one in every four churches is actively planning for pastoral succession. And when that many churches are focused on transition, it can lead to a lack of focus on the vision over time. On today’s podcast, Tony and Amy start a new series answering some of the most pressing questions we hear from church leaders with a conversation on succession and bold moves. If you’re new to The Unstuck Church Podcast, stop before you listen and head to theunstuckgroup.com/podcast and subscribe to get the episode show notes in your email. When you do, you’ll get resources that support each week’s episode, as well as access to resources from all of our past episodes. Again, that’s theunstuckgroup.com/podcast to subscribe. Now, before this week’s conversation, here’s a word from Tony.
Tony (00:55):
PlainJoe: A Storyland Studio partners with churches, nonprofits, faith-based organizations, and educational environments to create unforgettable strategic, digital, and spatial stories that lift the Spirit. Their team of talented designers, architects, and specialists can assist you with services such as brand development, building projects, custom web development, and more. Their approach to designing custom experiences is both fun-loving and professional, enabling pastors and leaders to enjoy the process while advancing their ministry. Now, here’s some exciting news – PlainJoe is hosting the PlainJoe Design Intervention giveaway, where one winner will receive the grand prize: 200 hours of design services from PlainJoe, for free! Visit plainjoestudios.com for more information. And if you’re ready to rethink your buildings, logos, or website experience to take your organization to the next level, consider PlainJoe.
Amy (01:41):
Well, Tony, today is fun because we’re starting a new series. Can you fill everyone in on what we’re gonna be talking about these next few weeks?
Tony (01:47):
Yeah. This upcoming series is called Pressing Questions for Pastors, and I’m excited about this one because our goal with this podcast really is to answer the most pressing and relevant questions that pastors are asking right now. So when our team sits down to plan our content series, that, that’s where we normally start by discussing what’s in the heart and minds of pastors today. And, of course, we mostly hear that through our work on the ground consulting with churches every week. So, the first three episodes of the series will be answering some of the known questions pastors are wondering about in the season. But we’re also going to open things up for our listeners for the final episode of the series and do more of a kind of a rapid-fire Q and A in that final episode, Amy.
Amy (02:32):
Yeah, I’m looking forward to that episode. Those are always fun. So for our listeners, if you’d like to submit questions for that rapid-fire Q and A, you can do so by tagging us on social media @UnstuckGroup or by emailing your question to tony@theunstuckgroup.com. And we’ll sort through those. It’ll be a fun episode. All right, well, let’s dive into today’s conversation around two pressing questions pastors are asking and the questions they should be asking. Tony, what’s the first pressing question pastors are asking?
Tony (03:02):
Yeah, so the first one, and we’re hearing this quite often, pastors are asking, “How do I retire and leave my church as healthy as possible?”
Amy (03:10):
That sounds like a fair question. What question would you say they should be asking, though?
Tony (03:16):
Well, it’s a subtle difference, Amy, but I think it’s important, an important difference. When it comes to this topic, I really think pastors should be asking, “How do we prepare for succession and position the church to be healthier after I retire?” The first question is more about preparing for the actual retirement and preparing the church for a new pastor. The second question is more about positioning the church for future health. And in a way, this is kind of like the difference of planning an extravagant wedding ceremony rather than the more thoughtful, intentional work of preparing for a healthy marriage relationship.
Amy (03:52):
That must be on your mind cuz you had two girls get married this last year. Is that where you pulled that from?
Tony (03:56):
It is, and it’s on my bank account’s mind as well, Amy.
Amy (04:00):
All right. Well, it definitely seems like succession is a hot topic amongst church leaders lately. Why do you think some pastors are hesitant to prepare for succession, though?
Tony (04:11):
Well, before I answer your question, let me just share. We recently did some research on this, and I was a bit surprised to find that more than a quarter of churches are actively involved in some succession planning in this season. But, you know, you ask, “Why is it that pastors are hesitant, even though a quarter of them might be actively involved?” I think, I think there are two kind of key reasons here. The first is that for many church leaders who have been in ministry for decades, or in some cases, the more majority of their lives, the title of pastor can really become part of their identity. It’s not that most of us consciously try to do this. But over time and, and probably in an unhealthy way, we find our identity in our role as pastor and leader and that makes the idea of preparing to leave the role and raise up a new leader kind, really, it’s a threat to our identity. And my suspicion, Amy, is pastors aren’t the only people that do this. I think especially those of us that have really invested for years in our roles in the marketplace or in ministry roles, it’s, it’s pretty easy to let ourselves drift to that place where we really get our significance from what we’re doing rather than who we are in Jesus. The second reason is it’s, it’s just uncomfortable. We had a conversation around succession with William Vanderbloemen a while back on the podcast, and he put it this way, “Succession in churches is different than in the marketplace where it’s common for CEOs to have this conversation. In churches,” he explained, “it can get unhealthy with people feeling more like, ‘Oh, dad or mom is thinking about leaving us.'” So, it’s definitely one of those issues that’s kind of touchy because immediately we start to think about the long-term relational connections and kind of emotional connections to the team. And it’s like, it’s like we’re talking about losing mom or dad.
Amy (06:11):
Yeah. It definitely seems to be a more emotional conversation for churches, but William made a great point in that conversation, Tony. He said there’s only three possible endings to a pastor’s tenure. First, he or she is the pastor when Jesus returns.That’d be fun. Second, the pastor that runs the church into the ground, right? And closes it, or third, the pastor that effectively transitions leadership to another person. And I think if we can help our teams understand that, we can create a more healthy dialogue around succession. So with that, let’s move on to the solution side of things and try to answer the right question for pastors to be asking, “How do we prepare for succession and position the church to be healthier after I retire?”
Tony (06:54):
Yeah. So the first question we probably need to ask then is when, when is the right time to start succession planning? And, you know, the, the answer to this is probably yesterday or sooner rather than later. In fact, the quicker pastors can orient to the idea that we really are interim pastors— all of us— we’re all acting pastors, meaning we won’t be around forever. The easier it is then to start talking about what happens next. And the earlier, earlier that you can start planning, the more effective you’ll be in recognizing the right time and being financially prepared then to have good options for the future.
Amy (07:32):
Okay. So first recommendation: start yesterday or at least start today. What else?
Tony (07:38):
Yeah, well, Tim Celek was a pastor that we worked with several years ago. He’s former lead pastor of The Crossing out in Southern California. And he wrote an article for us once on this topic, offering five kind of mantras or statements for pastors who are trying to wrap their minds around succession. And the, his five statements were these. First, I will approach my position with the understanding that I am the acting senior or lead pastor of my church. His second statement was this: I will operate with the spirit and attitude of faith, not fear regarding the future. The third statement he offered was, I will communicate a clear path and plan with a concrete time frame. And what I’m learning from pastors is actually putting a time frame on it, Amy, is really critical. His fourth statement is, I will demonstrate a rigorous commitment to and trust in my successor. This is, I mean, Paul demonstrated this and how he talked about Timothy. But this is us really not only pouring into and learning through over time how to really trust the person that we’re handing leader, leadership off to. But it’s really part of our responsibility then to really demonstrate our commitment and trust to that successor as well. And then the fifth statement, I will invest relationally and experientially in a life of the incoming successor. And I love that framework. So, let’s dive into each of these points just a bit further. Again, number one, I will approach my position with the understanding that I am the acting senior lead pastor of my church. And Jesus is the only constant in the church. Every other leader is an interim. That’s why it’s important to communicate the temporary reality of your tenure to your board, to your staff team early on. And often we need to communicate this often, too, to the team. The success and health of our church doesn’t rise and fall on our leadership. This is a work that Jesus is doing through our church, through our ministry. The second one, I will operate with a spirit and attitude of faith, not fear. And this goes back to why it’s, it’s why most pastors avoid talk about succession. First, I mean, everything about succession can be emotionally challenging. And we alluded to that a bit ago. And if we have not planned well, then maybe there’s also some financial apprehension. And this is why simple conversations in boardrooms or executive team meetings can cause anxiety around succession. But because we’re talking about the unknowns rather than the knowns in many instances.
Amy (10:28):
Yeah, I think that’s yet another reason to begin planning earlier rather than later. If we haven’t made an exit plan for leaving and/or made a plan for what’s next, it’s much easier to let fear and anxiety creep in. What’s the next mantra, Tony?
Tony (10:43):
Yeah, the third one that Tim offered is that I will communicate a clear path and plan with a concrete time frame. And the path, the plan and the time frame of succession will look different for every church. So, there’s no one-size-fits-all that we can recommend. I will make one recommendation, though, and that is that the existing pastor needs to figure out what’s next before they reach the end of the, of their ministry season. At 80, God moved Moses where he could use him, and you may have knowledge at 20, but wisdom comes with age. So getting a clearer picture of where God is calling you to go rather than where you’re leaving from, definitely makes this process a lot easier.
Amy (11:27):
Hey Tony, a book that I’ve really enjoyed, and I know you’re a fan, too, because you gave me the book is the book from Strength to Strength by, I think it’s Arthur Brooks. In the book, he describes how our minds decline with (it’s bad news, isn’t it?) how our minds decline with age as we shift from this fluid intelligence to crystallized intelligence, which lends itself to more of an equipping mentoring capacity. And I think that’s a great read for pastors who are trying to answer the question of how God might use them next as they leave a more formal leadership role.
Tony (11:59):
Yeah, that’s definitely right, Amy. And actually, I think pastors, we have a lot more flexibility of leaning in to that crystallized intelligence and all the opportunities that come with it compared to a lot of other professions in the world around us. So, that brings us then to number four. And that said, I will demonstrate rigorous commitment to and trust in my successor. And I think this is, this one is a challenge because different leaders have radically different leadership styles, and there always will be a need to balance between what you can channel from your predecessor to gain respect versus what ground you have to create on your own.
Amy (12:38):
Yeah, that’s right, Tony. I’ve noticed that new pastors really have to start by focusing on what’s not going to change before the transition takes place, right? Because there’s nervousness in a change in lead pastor, so what’s not going to change. But soon after the transition happens, the staff leadership and eventually the congregation will wanna hear a new fresh vision for the future. And that’s why strategic planning for the future and the succession ideally proceed in tandem.
Tony (13:06):
Exactly. And then that brings us to number five: I will invest relationally and experientially in the life of the incoming successor. So, successful transitions in leadership in churches greatly depend on sharing common DNA. And that’s why we recommend you find someone on the outside early and work together for maybe five to 10 years as you’re working through this process. Then, as transition gets closer, Tim recommended that the outgoing senior leader and their spouse spend significant intentional time with the incoming senior leader and their spouse. And they might need a coach to guide them when their plays aren’t going so well. They might need an active listener when no one else seems to be fully understanding what’s happening, but this gets developed during the transition process and as part of the preparation for success, both now and then in the future after the transition has actually happened.
Amy (14:05):
You know, Tony, we had a call with some great leaders a couple of days ago, and one of our former team members, Michael Moore, has transitioned right from being the executive pastor at his church to the lead pastor. And you remember what he said? Maybe you’ll remember it better. He was saying something to the effect of, you can read all the books you want on parenting, but when you become a parent, it’s a whole new ballgame. And that’s what he was saying about being the lead pastor. I mean, his father was a lead pastor for years. He had lots of time to prepare, but once he was the lead pastor, it was a new ballgame. And so those mentors around you for that new successor seemed to be really important. You agree?
Tony (14:41):
I agree. I agree. And, Amy, we’ve, through the years, seen some fantastic succession stories. I mean, the story of Tim and, and Andrew at The Crossing is just one example of that. Our friends down at Journey Christian Church down near Orlando, passing it off in recent years, passing off leadership—that’s been a very successful story. And then another, I think great example of succession was from the church in Scranton, Pennsylvania, Amy, Parker Hill. Was that the name of the church?
Amy (15:17):
Yeah, Parker Hill. Yeah.
Tony (15:18):
And as part of that pastor succession, they actually decided to merge with another church, LCBC Church in Pennsylvania. And so that, that was a kind of a combination both of succession and merger into multisite that again, I just think it’s, it was a fun journey to walk with them through that as they were taking those steps.
Amy (15:42):
Yeah, those are great stories. All right. Let’s shift gears now and move on to our second question for today. And the question is, how do we refresh vision? And again, that sounds like a pretty good question to me, but what question do you think they should be asking instead, Tony?
Tony (15:57):
Yeah, and it’s actually a common question that we’re hearing, Amy, on this side of the pandemic because, for the past few years, I think most churches were just focused on how do we survive this and how do we get through this and then how do we get people to come back to church? But the question that you asked, I think, again, I think it’s a good question, but I think a better question to be asking in this season is, what’s the next bold move that God’s calling us to engage? And I think there are a few reasons why pastors are trying to refresh their vision right now. I mean, one as example, maybe giving is soft in this season. Maybe people aren’t volunteering as much as they used to or they’re not volunteering at all. And seeing those metrics go down might lead pastors to think that they need to refresh vision for the future to get people back on board. However, I think that a three-to-five-year vision right now, it just feels too far away in this season. And we need to really be more focused on what’s happening now and in the next months if, if we really want people to get on board. And that’s where our bold moves come into play. Vision statements are often we find in working with churches kind of just a restatement of the mission statement, which is not a bad thing.
Amy (17:16):
Mm-hmm.
Tony (17:16):
Instead, though, we think what you really need is kind of a one-page document in writing that highlights the bold move or the bold moves that you’re sensing God has for your church in the future. And it’s important that you not only describe clearly as possible what the bold move will look like, but you also need to address why is it, why is it that we’re engaging this move as a church and why do we believe God wants us to pursue this vision and these specific bold moves.
Amy (17:48):
Yeah, I agree, Tony, but it feels like this isn’t on the radar of most pastors right now. What do you think are some of the reasons why churches aren’t making bold moves in this season?
Tony (17:57):
Yeah, Amy. I think the first reason maybe is that they’re just too busy. We’re too busy doing what we’ve always done. And if we’re not careful, kind of that whirlwind of ministry, the day-to-dayness of ministry will fill every minute of every day. And that just, it never fails. It never stops. Ministry never stops. And because ministry never stops and because ministry is all about people, ministry definitely will never stop because people, people come with opportunities and challenges. And the more people we engage in the mission of the church, the more ministry there is to be done. But before long, we could find ourselves doing what the church has always done. And if we never take time to pause and ask, is what we’re doing today having the impact that God intended for our church to have? Or does God have something more, something greater? If we’re so busy doing what we’ve always done, it’s very difficult to pull back and imagine what more God might have for us if we start to pursue his vision for the church going forward.
Amy (19:06):
That’s so true. You know, we can’t wait for time to open up in our schedules to assess how our strategies are working, and we can’t wait to complete every task before we dream about the future. We have to discipline ourselves to create space to make this happen. 4DX, great book; if you haven’t read it, listeners, great book to read. But they often say you need to spend 80% of your time working, you know, in your ministry, but you need to put 20% of your time working on your ministry. So, good point, Tony. What’s another reason you think churches aren’t making bold moves?
Tony (19:38):
Yeah, Amy. I think another reason that churches don’t make bold moves right now is they’re not intentional about the team of leaders around them. Churches tend to hire people to do ministry, and when you hire doers, things get done. But it’s usually the same thing that gets done over and over and over again. That’s because doers like completing tasks and then waiting for their next assignment. Leaders, on the other hand, think about the future and how the future should be different than it is today. They create. They dream. They embrace change. And they want to have a voice in the conversations about that future change.
Amy (20:16):
Yeah, that’s right. And change can’t happen if we’re only, if we’re the only ones pushing it. If you wanna make bold moves, you need other leaders around you, and you’ll need people who come with different perspectives. You’ll need their unique experiences, right? Their fresh ideas. And we probably won’t make bold moves if we don’t collaborate with others who can stretch our thinking a little bit. What else, Tony, what else is a reason why we’re not making bold moves right now?
Tony (20:42):
Yeah, I, Amy, I just think sometimes we’re waiting for perfect conditions. I, and I love this verse, this is from Ecclesiastes. King Solomon said, “Farmers who wait for perfect weather never plant. If they watch every cloud, they never harvest.” I can honestly say that I’ve only had one instance in my life, Amy, when I was a hundred percent sure I was about ready to make the next bold move, the next right decision. And that’s when I asked Emily to marry me. In every other instance, including moving, taking new jobs, having children, having more children, at best, I think I was maybe 75% confident that I was making the right decision. And sometimes, that wasn’t enough. I mean, if you’re always waiting for the perfect conditions and a hundred percent guarantees that this is what’s next, you will never take the steps that God wants you to take. So, God will prompt us to make bold moves, and if they align with God’s word and the wise counsel of others, we need to lean in and press in on those opportunities to engage those bold moves.
Amy (21:56):
You’re sorta wearing your Pastor Tony hat today. You’re getting in that mode. All right. Amen to that. Maybe I should throw that in there. What’s the final reason church leaders hesitate to make bold moves?
Tony (22:07):
I think the final reason might be that we’re insecure leaders. I mean pride, let’s be honest. Pride is a dangerous thing. And we often think of power-hungry, arrogant leaders as dealing with pride issues. Their ego may be more evident, but timid and insecure leaders wrestle with pride issues as well. And we assume we have control when God is in control. We think we’re responsible for building the church when we all know it’s God who builds the church. And because we think we can control more than we do, sometimes we hesitate to make bold moves. We fear the failure that might happen. We don’t want others to find out that we don’t know what we’re doing as if we’re the only leaders who don’t know what we’re doing. So here’s my advice. If it’s not God’s plan, you should be insecure. If it doesn’t align with God’s word, you should really be insecure. If you haven’t received good counsel in coaching, you should be insecure. But if you’re only afraid to make a bold move because it might fail, well, that could be pride talking.
Amy (23:15):
I think that’s really convicting, Tony. No one is saying that making a bold move is easy, but if our current strategies aren’t working, then we can’t expect different results if we’re unwilling to approach ministry differently. Well, hopefully, that’s enough of a compelling case for why we need to make bold moves right now. But could you start to unpack how churches can go about, you know, determining what their next bold moves are?
Tony (23:38):
Yeah, Amy, I love this part of The Unstuck Process because weeks in advance, we encourage teams to begin praying, dreaming together, having conversations internally among the different leaders and then coming together when we’re onsite with that team to kind of talk through and continue to dream about all that God might have for the church moving forward. And then, we work with the team to take all of those great idea ideas and narrow them down. Maybe it’s just one or two specific bold moves that we think the church needs to engage in the coming months in order to move the mission of the church forward. And it’s fun, it’s a fun conversation with teams to talk through some of the pros and cons, the resource investment that might be required, some of the risk that might be required, but then on the other side of that, the kingdom impact that could happen as well. And it’s one of the reasons why I just love getting to do what we get to do, Amy, because even the healthiest churches, I really do believe, every healthy church needs to have one key bold move in front of them to keep them pressing forward in the mission God’s called them to. And the reason why I say that is, if it’s a bold move, it’s bigger than anything that any one of us could accomplish in our own effort. And I think every church needs to have something like that because it will cause us all to be leaning on God more, to be praying more specifically, to be inviting others to join us in that bold move to, to join us with their prayers, their time, their financial resources.
Amy (25:23):
Mm-hmm.
Tony (25:29):
And really, it helps keep the church united in purpose. I mean by, by going after something significant like this, it keeps everybody focused on that next step that we’re trying to take as a ministry and the potential kingdom impact that could result from this bold move. And so, I, you know, Amy, this is just another example of why I get so excited to do what we get to do on a regular basis. I was just with another church this week. And it’s, that was a fun opportunity because I had engaged with them more than 10 years ago. I went back, the church is more than twice the size it was 10 years ago. They’re, they’re experiencing all kinds of momentum even on this side of the pandemic now, the char, the church is as large as they’ve ever been. And we spent a number of hours just talking about future direction and what the bold moves might look like for their ministry. And it really was a rallying point for the whole team. And what I love is, especially for the senior pastors that we get to work with by going through this process together, the burden’s not on them to get a clear vision from God. Yes, we want them to be connected in relationship with Christ and hearing from God routinely, but the beauty of this process is we get together with the, with the leaders that we’re engaging the ministry with, we get to come together and try to dis discern together what is the bold move that God has for our church.
Amy (26:56):
You know, Tony, I often follow you after planning working on staffing and structure, and I can always tell the team that has landed on their bold moves because you talk about it rallying them.
Tony (27:09):
Yes.
Amy (27:09):
It’s energizing. They’re excited about it. And you often say, you know, the, the right bold move, the right vision rallies not only your time but your prayer life, your financial resources. I was just with the church in Indiana, and they have such a bold vision of where they’re going. And that whole team, they’re pulling together. They’re all united. They’re not scattered in their activities; they’re all united around where they’re going. So, great example. Well, I hope for our listeners today’s conversation on succession and bold moves was helpful not only in knowing what the right questions are to ask but to start working towards an answer to those questions. Tony, do you have any final thoughts as we wrap up today’s conversation?
Tony (27:50):
Yeah, Amy, one of the pressing questions we’re hearing from a lot of pastors right now is, “How do I reengage and rally people around a clear, compelling mission again?” And because we feel this is such an important question, we’re gonna be dedicating an entire webinar to this on June 29th. I want to invite you to join us for a free webinar on how to reengage your church in the mission, and we’ll teach you the practical strategies needed to reignite your church’s passion and purpose for living on mission in this season. And you can register to join us for that event using the link in your show notes.
Sean (28:28):
Well, thanks for joining us on this week’s podcast. Like Tony mentioned, we’d love to have you join us on our upcoming webinar on June 29th. To register, download the show notes at theunstuckgroup.com/podcast. Next week, we’re back with another brand new conversation. So until then, have a great week.
