Growing Church Problems (Part 1)
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Church growth is exciting…until it creates problems you’ve never had to solve before.
This is the tension of leadership: growth always brings complexity.
And yet, when you’re prepared, growth doesn’t have to lead to burnout or stuckness. With the right decisions about space, staff, systems and strategy, you can create a sustainable path forward.
We’re kicking off a new series called “Growing Church Problems.” We’re unpacking the real, practical challenges leaders are facing, starting with: How do you make wise decisions about service times and facilities before you’re boxed in?
In this episode, Sean and I discuss the common signs you’re starting to outgrow your current space, how to evaluate new service times and practical next steps to take when you’re ready to make changes to your space and service times.
If you want to make good decisions, you have to get ahead of your growth problems. [episode 421] #unstuckchurch Share on X If it's a temporary shift and you've got a more long-term solution, people typically will move with you. [episode 421] #unstuckchurch Share on X Make a decision in the best context of the community that you're doing ministry in. [episode 421] #unstuckchurch Share on X Don’t wait until your church is at 100% capacity to make changes. [episode 421] #unstuckchurch Share on X
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Transcript
Sean:
Hey, church leaders. Just a quick reminder, we are not too far away from Christmas, and this Christmas season represents so many great things for churches, including being their biggest fundraising opportunity of the year. Church attendance increases and so does generosity. Our friends at Donorbox Live Kiosk have a solution to make it easier for people to give. Fewer people are carrying and giving cash, and that’s not a problem with Live Kiosk as people can tap, swipe, or use their phone to donate instantly. You can automatically capture their contact information, so you can send tax receipts and even set up recurring gifts. Join over a hundred thousand organizations that are raising literally billions of dollars right now with Donorbox. Try live kiosk free at donorbox.org/unstuckpodcast.
Well, welcome to the Unstuck Church podcast. I’m Sean, your host here again with Amy Anderson. And today we’re kicking off a series called Growing Church Problems, where we’ll be looking at the challenges that actually indicate your church is reaching more people. And our goal in this series is to really help church leaders navigate the balance between building healthy systems and ministry strategy when your church is just growing rapidly.
Amy:
That’s right. In our work with churches across the country, Sean, we found that there’s often a season when churches experience rapid growth, but they don’t have the right structures in place to sustain it. So while it’s exciting to see more people attending, these growing church pains can actually create some barriers to continued growth and health if we don’t address them properly.
Sean:
So for this first episode, we’re gonna cover a topic that comes up a lot, maybe actually the most over the last couple of years with growing churches. And it’s the question, how do we make the best decisions about space and service times?
Amy:
Yeah, exactly. And you know, this tension starts to develop around the fact that we just can’t fit all the people in anymore. And if you’re having these problems, let me just congratulate you. This is one of the key tensions to manage to borrow from Andy Stanley’s phrase. That every growing church will continuously face.
Sean:
So when you get to these seasons of momentum, you know, growth is exciting until it creates problems that you’ve never had to solve before. And one of the most common growing church problems we encounter is space constraints. So Amy, what are some of the common signs that a church can just kind of identify that they’re starting to outgrow their current space?
Amy:
Yeah. Well, when a church starts growing, there’s several indicators that space is becoming an issue. This isn’t rocket science, but the most obvious one is when your services are consistently reaching that 80% capacity or higher. And I’ve had lots of conversations over the past few years, like post COVID, should it really be more like 60%, 70%? I just sense we’re back to that 80% capacity rule. And at that point, even though you technically have seats available, it becomes difficult for families to find seats together.
Another sign, and I’ve had this with lots of churches this year, is when your parking lot fills up before services start. This just creates a poor first impression for your guests because often they’re not the ones coming early. Another, you might also notice like a plateau in attendance, even though you’re seeing a lot of new people. This often means people aren’t coming, well, they’re coming once, but not returning because it just felt too crowded.
Also when kids’ rooms start hitting maximum capacity, that’s obviously an indicator that space is an issue. And really it goes back to the three lids that we’ve talked about for years. You know, you have your lid in your auditorium, a lid in your parking lot, and a lid in your kids’ space. So those are the headline issues that say we are running out of room.
Sean:
You know, I know a lot of church leaders struggle with the timing of making these decisions. They don’t want to add services too early, but waiting too long can obviously really impact growth, the growth that’s happening. I’ve seen a number of churches add overflow space before adding services just in an effort to not burn out staff and maybe not have to recruit more volunteers. So Amy, what’s at stake if a church waits too long to create more capacity?
Amy:
Yeah. I’m working with several churches right now that waited too long, so it’s fresh on my mind, but the stakes are actually quite high. When people, especially new people to your church, they can’t find seats, they can’t find parking or have to wait in long lines to check their kids in, they just often don’t come back. So churches that wait too long to address space constraints typically experience a growth plateau that honestly can last for years. And you just mentioned it, there’s also the volunteer burnout factor. When spaces are maxed out, your teams get stressed trying to accommodate everyone. And, you know, many churches end up rushing into building projects when they could have solved their problems with creative service time solutions.
Sean:
So that’s a good synopsis of the problems that this can create. And you know, for a lot of church leaders in growing churches right now, they just said, well, yeah, duh.
Amy:
Duh.
Sean:
You know, we’ve experienced all of those things. So let’s, we wanna be very practical on this podcast. Let’s talk about potential solutions. Where would you start if you were coaching a church that’s asking these questions?
Amy:
Yeah, let me just start by saying there are no silver bullets. If you want to make good decisions, you just have to get ahead of your growth problems. So first solution is begin projecting out what size church will we be in five years. You know, for instance, when I was in ministry full-time, we just assumed 20% growth year over year and we chose 20% because that’s what we had been experiencing for many years. So just by making a simple Excel sheet, which I love a good spreadsheet, you know, that documents your current attendance. And then doing that math for us 20% year over year, and then comparing that to our seating capacity, we knew way ahead of time when we would start to hit lids at specific service times, in our kids space as well and our parking.
And that exercise gave us time, Sean, it just gave us time to build plans to open up more seats. And it also gave us a financial heads up when we were going to need to make a space investment. It helped us be proactive instead of reactive. And what we found is that people would choose to move out of optimal hours for a while if they knew another solution was coming, like an expansion project or a new location. So that’s why this pre-planning helps because you’ve got more of a story than just, hey, we have to add an 8:00 AM service.
But for our listeners, if it’s too late for you, just recognize that you are choosing the best of bad options, and you might just have to do that for a while. All the easy ones are already taken, but I think we’ve got some good ideas for you guys to think through today.
Sean:
Okay. So just noting that planning ahead is what helps pastors really manage this tension most effectively. What about when you’re facing just that urgent, immediate need? What are some of the key factors churches need to consider when they’re evaluating their service times?
Amy:
Yeah, there’s several critical factors. Clearly there are optimal service times, and then there’s everything else. So here are some handles as you evaluate your service time options. First, I think the 80% rule I just mentioned is crucial. When services are consistently more than 80% full, it’s time to add services. The second thing I’d say is before adding services, try shifting people first through intentional seating. You know, with a great usher team and regularly encouraging people to attend the less crowded services. We did this all the time, you know, trying to move people to Saturday night. We used humor, we bribed people with food, we gave away t-shirts, and we always anchored our messaging around our mission. You know, at first Saturday night for us was a non-optimal time for people. But years later, Sean, we couldn’t open a new location of our church without Saturday night. And I’m not saying Saturday night is your move to our listeners. I know college football in the South makes it a non option for many churches.
Sean:
Or in South Bend, by the way.
Amy:
Or in South Bend. Yeah. It’s just my Minnesota example. You know, in our area we have a very strong base of Catholicism where they’re just used to going to mass on Saturday nights. So church on Saturday night’s sort of normal. But that try to move people. And I know it gets tiresome, but you know, eventually you may wear some people down. Third thing I’d say is when choosing the timing window, the timing window matters. We have learned that services that start with a seven or a 12 typically don’t work well for reaching young families. When services start with a seven or a 12, it’s often a difficult push uphill.
Now, that’s not always the case. Again, it depends on who your mission field is and where your church is. I’m gonna give you an example of several churches who are doing this well, but if you’re trying to reach young families, you just have to recognize those are hard times. And we all know this, but the tension with three services on Sunday is that everyone wants to go to the middle one.
Sean:
Right. Of course.
Amy:
So whatever non-optimal time we’re trying to launch, we need to understand the concept of what I would call critical mass. We need to have enough people in the room to create energy and engagement, and this typically means probably at least a third of the seats need to be filled. And of course, more is better.
Sean:
Yeah. What about the practical aspects of just adding services? You know, a lot of churches struggle with volunteer capacity, concerns about maybe splitting the congregation. How should churches approach this?
Amy:
Yeah. The concerns about splitting up the congregation, those are usually smaller churches that they’ve just had one service for so long. I think most of our listeners are probably past that. But here’s how I think they should approach that about adding services. So this is where strategic planning becomes essential. Moving to multiple services, I think it actually creates opportunities rather than problems when it’s done correctly. So multiple services allow people to attend one service and serve at another, which actually expands your volunteer base, which is a huge win.
Due to parking and space lids, when churches are going to multiple services just for those who still offer like Sunday school on Sunday morning, I think you should consider in your planning, moving those classes to weeknights, a different timeframe, not the prime time on Sunday morning. Otherwise they compete with a space that the weekend needs. I’m working with one church right now, and they’ve got a robust Sunday school on Sunday morning, but parking is one of their biggest challenges. So they’re wrestling with that.
And I’d say the same thing about student ministries. You know, if those are on Sunday morning, consider moving that primary student hour to off of Sunday morning, let the students go to church, you know, in big church, and then actually be a part of that serving team and move their primary programming. Those are just things that start to create some space as we’re offering multiple services.
Sean:
Yeah. That’s good. Amy, there’s two other very common questions that we get. And I, you know, I’ve heard, and for what it’s worth, talking to hundreds of pastors across the country that reach out to us, the churches I’m actively working with, I’ve heard these questions over and over, and they are, how many services are too many on a Sunday? And what are the best options for other days of the week other than Sunday to have a service?
So here’s what I’ve seen. Most churches see diminishing results when they try to pack more than three services in on a Sunday. And again, because of what you just mentioned about service times, you know, before eight o’clock or afternoon, many churches have tried, you know, very early service time or an afternoon option, and they’ve seen less people attending and often those services are actually reaching a different group of people. So it really isn’t helping create capacity with the other Sunday morning service times.
And then as far as options for services on other days of the week, I’ve heard three primary options. A small number of churches that I’ve talked to have had some success with Monday Night Services, interestingly. And all of these options are actually a bit surprising to me. They’re typically catching people who had other plans over the weekend, and then they decide to attend Monday night instead. Another church I was talking to recently has a Wednesday night service that’s identical to their Sunday service. They’re kind of idiom in that is Sunday starts on Wednesday, and in fact, this is what’s fascinating about the Wednesday night. They said it’s their second highest attendance service of the week on Wednesday night.
Amy:
You know, Sean, I just worked with a church and they had that same phrase, except it was Thursday. That Sunday starts on Thursday, and they’re having success with that as well.
Sean:
Yeah. Well, so I’ve had two other churches that I’m working with that have Thursday night services and have had some success with those. So of course Saturday night is always a consideration. I’ve heard more and more churches steering clear of Saturday night. You talked about that a little bit already, just concerns with burnout there. When I was, when I had little kids, we actually loved the Saturday night service at our church because our kids were awake and ready and prepared. And we didn’t have to go through that struggle on Sunday morning. So for what that’s worth, those are some of the options, other options that I’m hearing out there.
And a lot of churches have questions about that, but when churches are considering alternate days, I think they really need to take into account their community’s, you mentioned this earlier, Amy, and any uniqueness that might impact primary days, but I know a lot of churches are interested in this and what other churches are trying and whether they’re seeing success or not. Okay. Let’s try to make it even more practical. Maybe we can just share a few stories from churches that we’re connected with.
Amy:
Yeah. I think stories and examples always help. And like I’ve said many times the past few months, the majority of the churches I’ve served this year are growing churches. And that’s why they’re experiencing stuckness. So I’ve got several examples here. One is Noah Herron’s church, the Way Church in Nashville. He was on our podcast this past year. You know, they had four weekend services and were out of space. And he actually kind of begged on the podcast like, does anyone have any buildings in Nashville for us? But I talked to a gal who is at that church and she said, we had services at 8, 9:30, 11 and 12:30. And by the way, you just said, let’s pay attention to who’s coming to our church, who we’re reaching. This is very much a Gen Z church. Very much a Gen Z church. Anyway, she said we were growing so fast and simply had no room. 9:30 and 11, of course were always packed, sometimes going into overflow. But volunteers were encouraged to attend the eight or 12:30 on weeks that they weren’t serving to make space for new people, you know, at the more popular service times. And I like what she said here. The hardest part she said was preventing burnout for the volunteers. And so to remedy this, volunteers also had an opening shift or a closing shift, which worked pretty well. I love that language, just to help people step into serving that way. They served at one service, they sat in another. The good news here for the Way Church is they now are in a bigger building, so they have gone back to 8, 9:30 and 11. They’re still growing. So the Way Church, I hope you’re plotting out your growth to figure out what’s next, but a bigger solution, a bigger building was their solution. They just, it took a long time to find that.
Another example, so Derwin and Vicki Gray at Transformation Church in Indian Land, South Carolina, they recently launched an 8:15 service because their other two services were full. And Sean, they had over 700 people make that shift to the early service. And I asked Vicki Gray what they think led to that success, because I have another church where they’ve been trying to push that thing uphill for, you know, a good year. But she said, yeah, we targeted our core and committed members. We asked them to switch to the 8:15 service to create space for newcomers who typically prefer the 10 and 11:45 times. Then their staff made personal relational asks of people to make that switch, rather than just sending emails and they encourage people to pray about making the change. And then they leveraged their tagline, because people matter to God, they matter to us in their communications. And Derwin, the lead pastor created videos for the newsletter emphasizing, you know, creating space and Transformation Church needs you. And then she said, to build excitement, we produced a breaking news video, which featured interviews with staff, servant leaders, small groups, and these videos played in the auditorium just before the services begin. So I like that example. They have, that’s a huge success to move 700 people, but they didn’t just try one strategy, one announcement. You could see that they were surrounding this and really casting vision around it.
Here’s another one. Chris Allen, who’s the executive pastor at CenterPoint Church in Orem, Utah, they’ve been running three services for some time at 9, 10:30 and noon. And they need a fourth service. They need a fourth service. Now, I should explain where God has placed their church. It’s in the youngest city, in the youngest county in the youngest state of the United States. So the average age is 26. A lot of college students live there. So with that demographic in mind, they’re actually launching a 1:00 PM service and then adjusting all the other three services by 30 minutes. So they’re moving to 8:30, 10, 11:30 and one. And by the way, that’s smart to disrupt everyone’s service time. So they have to choose where to go. And again, because of the young age, they just felt like, and they did a survey, people would be more open to coming in the afternoon than coming in the early morning just for the rhythms of that age group.
Here’s another one. Palm Valley Church in the Phoenix area, they were maxed out with four services on Sunday morning at one of their locations, and they were growing at nearly 30% year over year. So they knew they needed to make room. They said adding another campus is always an option, but adding a campus takes time. Time they didn’t have in the moment. And additionally, they just felt like they needed to fully maximize their current location. So after a season of prayer and a congregational survey, they discovered this strong openness to Saturday night services. And they created a sit one serve one culture to shape the model. So in a sense, their two Saturday services, they function like a new campus. She said giving people the chance to worship in one, serve at the other. And they also staff it as a separate campus, just a mindset to prevent staff burnout. So they’ve got a different team leading that Saturday night service. And since launching this past Easter, they’ve averaged over 330 people each weekend. And she said it continues to grow. Amy St. Louis is their XP. She shared that they’ve learned that many people in their community were just waiting for a Saturday option, especially those who work or have obligations on Sundays. And internally, they’ve seen this core group emerge that fully own Saturday night as their campus. So they have two Saturday night services at four and five 30 and three on Sunday at 8, 9:30 and 11.
And one more, another large multi-site church in the Phoenix area made a bold move several years ago, they were in the same situation where Sunday was just full. So they launched Saturday night services, two of them at three and four 30, and then made the decision to only teach live on Saturday night. At that location, all of Sunday was on video. Again, another smart move by them because Sunday’s still filled up, but everyone who wanted it live made the shift to Saturday night. And I should note, that church in particular, in their multi-site model, they actually challenge every location to grow to five services to accommodate growth. So their model is three and four 30 on Saturday night and Sunday at 9, 10:30 and noon.
So those are just some examples. You know, we always say you can’t go beyond three, but these churches are doing it, or they did it. And again, if you’ve got a longer term solution, people will adjust for a season. We actually ran seven services before we got our new construction built. So, you know, you have to rally the body, but if it’s a temporary shift and you’ve got a more long-term solution, people typically will move with you.
Sean:
Yeah. You know what I love about each of those examples you shared is they all made a decision in the best context of the community that they’re doing ministry in.
Amy:
That’s right. That’s right.
Sean:
They looked at their mission fields, they thought about what’s gonna serve them best. And then they made a decision in that context. So, you know, we’re sharing some overall trends in what we’re seeing, but there may be some uniqueness in the community that you’re in and you’re serving that may cause you to even work outside those trends, and those may be the best thing for your church in the long run. Amy, for a church that’s ready to make changes to their service times or maybe add services, what are just really practical kind of next steps they should take?
Amy:
Yeah, I think the first step always is to gather your data and analyze your current situation. This helps you make decisions based on facts rather than feelings. So everything in our process is assessment first. So if you aren’t doing it now, track your attendance percentages for each service over several months to find your trends and capacity issues. For services that are off optimal times, I also would challenge you to think through what capacity percentage would you call that a win? You know, for example, would you say 50% capacity at 4:30 on a Saturday or 12 o’clock on a Sunday would be a win? I just think, I don’t think we can expect those services to get to the 80% mark. So let’s be realistic about how many people they’re really gonna accommodate.
Second, we are usually completely against surveys here at the Unstuck Group. But I think in this context, you can survey your congregation about preferred service times before making the changes. So Center Point in Utah, they did this, as did Palm Valley Church that I just mentioned, and not so much as a democratic process as much as just wanting people to feel like they have some buy-in to different service times. So I think a survey can help out.
Third, I would create a comprehensive communication plan, what I was talking about earlier, to explain the why behind the changes you’re making. Again, Transformation Church that I talked about a minute ago did this so well. You know, you need to lead with your mission. I mean, that’s really why you’re asking people to move. It’s your mission. If all your seats are full on Sunday morning, you’re not on mission anymore. Right?
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
I think, you know, communications like, it’s a way people can support the mission. You know, there are some people who can’t give right now, they don’t have time to serve. It’s a way that they can get on mission with you just by changing what time they come to church. The third thing I would say in this communication plan, make it fun. You know, bring a smile. Like, we’re not asking you to go to another country to serve, we’re just asking you to change your alarm time. We had a funny campaign called, It’s All Right, I Went Last Night because back in the day, everyone was expected to be in church on Sunday, but it’s all right, I went last night.
Also, I think finding a way in this communication strategy to create community and identity. Palm Valley did this well, like Amy said, they have this, they’ve created this core group that fully owns Saturday as their campus. Sean, you know, we both worked at churches with Saturday nights that that was what we were doing. We were creating like an identity for those who made the change to go to Saturday night.
And then just couple things you have to do all the time. Always thank the people who move to the new service time. So when you’re in that off, you know, non-optimal service, thank people again. And then when you’re at your optimal times, tell stories about what’s happening in the new service times and continue to encourage people to give it a try for the sake of the mission.
Sean:
That’s good. That’s good. So a lot of great ideas there on how people and how churches can open up seats on Sunday mornings. So let me just kind of recap. Adding a third service on Sunday morning, we’re typically looking somewhere between eight and noon, so maybe 9, 10:15, 11:30 before adding other weekend, evening services. Consider adding those Saturday services. You and I both worked in churches where those were very successful, but be mindful of your staff and volunteer burnout if people are serving all weekend long. And like I mentioned earlier, you know, there are other churches that have found success with services during weeknights, Monday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night, where they’re experiencing good results. Amy, let’s move on to just kind of final thoughts as we wrap up week one of this series. What would you say to just kind of summarize today’s episode?
Amy:
Yeah. I think, you know, again, no silver bullets, but I just think it’s a lot of R and D, research and development. If you’re a growing church and we’re out of optimal times, we just have to try some things we haven’t tried in the past because we’re growing at such a clip. I think it’s important to remember that these growing church problems are really good problems to have. They create challenges, but they mean you’re fulfilling your mission. So just a few closing reminders. Don’t wait until you’re at a hundred percent capacity to make changes. Be proactive. Plan to run out of space so that you have time to make plans to launch new service times or locations.
Second, remember that facility constraints don’t have to mean building a new building. Creative service time solutions can save millions in construction costs. Our motto at our church was always, we don’t let facilities or money stop us from accomplishing our mission. It was really a rally cry that was part of our communication with our church. It was a rally cry to the folks that were on mission with us.
And lastly, as you said, Sean, try to keep the focus on creating the best possible experience for your mission field. Pay attention to when, what their schedules, what their rhythms look like, and your regular attendees alike. It’s important to keep both of those in view as you’re making these changes.
Sean:
Well, thanks for tuning in today, and we hope you listen in next week as we continue this series on growing church problems with an episode on the challenge of making staff structure changes and finding more staff. And ultimately, all of these growth challenges are opportunities to steward the moment well so that your church can reach more people with the hope of Jesus. And make sure you subscribe to the podcast at theunstuckgroup.com/podcast so you never miss an episode or the bonus resources we send by email every Wednesday morning. Next week, we’re back with episode two. Until then, have a great week.
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