Structured For Burnout (Part 1)
Pastoral burnout is one of the most critical issues facing church leaders today. And it’s not just about overwork or lack of boundaries: Your structure might be the very thing that’s creating the conditions for burnout—for both you and your staff.
We’re seeing this pattern play out in churches everywhere. Lead pastors are drowning under impossible spans of care, unclear role definitions, and organizational structures that create silos. Meanwhile, growth creates momentum that feels exciting but leaves no time to build the systems that would actually sustain health.
In this series, we’re going beyond the symptoms to address the structural realities that either fuel burnout or create space for sustained health.
Sean and Amy discuss the structure moves churches make that lead to burnout in this episode:
- “Structure is the problem”—What Does That Actually Mean?
- What a Healthy Span of Care Actually Looks Like
- Lead Pastor vs. Executive Pastor: The Difference Between the Roles
- Structural Questions to Ask to Relieve Burnout
The key for a healthy span of care is determining how many people you can effectively develop, coach and shepherd. [episode 442] #unstuckchurch Share on X If everything escalates back to the top, the lead pastor doesn’t just get busier. They actually get worse at their job. [episode 442] #unstuckchurch Share on X Burnout isn’t inevitable, but structural dysfunction often is—especially in growing churches—until someone names it and does something about it. [episode 442] #unstuckchurch Share on X
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Transcript
Sean:
Hey, listeners, before this week’s episode, I want to tell you about our podcast sponsor, PlainJoe Studios and how they could help you and your church. You know, our most recent Unstuck Church report said that the average church is actually growing by 14% year over year. That means that there are a lot of churches that are paying more attention to their worship space than ever. Well, the creative team at PlainJoe works with churches to create beautiful, engaging spaces that connect with their community. They have a team of architectural design and branding experts who help transform worship spaces into attractive, engaging hubs for the community. If that’s an area that your church could use some help, reach out to them today at plainjoe.net.
Welcome to the Unstuck Church Podcast. I’m Sean, your host, and if you’re new to the podcast, I serve as the Director of Consulting here at Unstuck. And I’m joined as always by our managing director, Amy Anderson. And today we’re kicking off a brand new series called Structured for Burnout. Amy, when I was back in school way back in the eighties, I remember a big deal being made about the dangers of smoking. And I can clearly remember this poster that we had in our school of the Surgeon General’s warning sticker that was on cigarette packs.
Amy:
Yes, yes.
Sean:
And sometimes I think maybe we need to slap a Surgeon General’s warning on ministry job descriptions, because if you’re not careful, they can really begin to be hazardous to your health. But in this series, we’re not here to talk about how to create a better morning routine or tell you how to take more walks. We’re going after something much deeper, the actual structural realities inside your church that are either fueling burnout or creating a space for sustained health. So, Amy, where do you want to start this series?
Amy:
Yeah. Well, hey, before I dive into it, I just want all of our listeners to know that you’re about to head into Easter services and just know that all of us at the Unstuck Group, we regularly pray for all of you and just pray that you’ll have a great Easter. You might want to listen to this one next week because I’m not sure you want to be thinking about this as you head into Easter.
Sean:
Right before Easter.
Amy:
But I want to start, Sean, with the premise that often how the church is structured can be a huge contributing factor to lead pastor burnout. So often I think it does get attributed to other things like, you know, maybe leaders feeling weak, not up for the job, undisciplined. Things like that. But from my seat, what I see time and time again is that the structure itself is actually creating the conditions for the problem, for the problem of burnout.
Sean:
Okay. So let’s establish what we actually mean here, because structure is the problem sounds just a little bit abstract. What does that look like in real churches, and why does it matter?
Amy:
Well, I think pastoral burnout is kind of everywhere. You know, back in December, I think it was December, Sean, we did a podcast on the subject of burnout with Jimmy McLeod from our team. A lead pastor at a great church. And so many people have mentioned to me how helpful it was. So burnout is certainly real. I’m married to a lead pastor so I can get a front row seat. But sometimes I think we mistakenly treat it like it’s a personal problem, meaning we tackle it with more sabbaticals, better boundaries, stronger self-care habits. And those are not bad things. We need to do those things. Sometimes they’re needed. But I think often the real issue is around organizational issues. In other words, how the church, how the team is structured, is creating an unsustainable load for the lead pastor.
You know, when we build structures for churches, I would just say that structure is like a distributor, right? It either distributes the weight appropriately or inappropriately. It’s either balanced or it’s unbalanced. And I’m leading with lead pastors, but this can actually exist for any ministry leader who’s leading people. Like I recently worked with a church where the lead pastor had brought in an executive pastor in 2022, and that executive pastor did a great job of helping the lead pastor get focused on what he needed to get focused on. But now the executive pastor has 14 direct reports. And without a shift, he would be on the road to burnout.
Also, a few years ago I worked with a lead pastor who had gone through a succession process and he basically inherited the structure of the former leader, and he just hit the ground running. Sunday’s always coming. So he inherited the structure. Well, the former leader was very hands off and kind of created a lot of little churches within the big church. The new pastor was pretty fried trying to keep all those plates spinning. You know, we had this new vision for the church, but the structure was a key blockade in making that happen.
I also remember working with a church during COVID. So this was a virtual engagement, and this church had a plurality and leadership model. All of the leaders were frustrated, burned out. In fact, Sean, I spoke with each of them privately. There were six leaders who were leading in plurality. And I asked them, what’s your biggest fear going through this staffing and structure process? Because I could tell they were all a little bit nervous about it. And one said, my biggest fear is that we’re gonna go through all of this and nothing will change. And by the way, it didn’t—they couldn’t decide how to decide on next steps.
So again, this is why I say this can happen to any ministry leader. I see so many ministry staff leaders dealing with burnout, and often when I talk with them, I quickly see that they have a structure under them where everything just funnels right back up to them. They’re the leader, and they have a lot of volunteers, but very few volunteer leaders. So again, the distribution of responsibility is just off kilter.
Sean:
Well, I think that brings us to the issues of silos within the structure. You know, what kills me about the silo problem is that it’s actually self-reinforcing. Every ministry gets to define their own wins, kind of build their own little kingdoms, run their own events, and then the lead pastor becomes the only person who has to care about all of it simultaneously. And that’s not necessarily leadership — that’s more like air traffic control with no radar running in the background. So walk me through how that siloed structure specifically feeds burnout at the top.
Amy:
Yeah. I think the key here is when ministries are siloed — like when you have men’s ministry, women’s ministry, young adult ministry, senior ministry, Hispanic ministry — where these groups with a lot of autonomy designed into their ministries have regular events and they’re kind of leading a church within their church. Well, that lead pastor does become the only integrating force. And when there are like these deep ruts of a church’s existence, meaning the men’s ministry or the women’s, it can feel like the lead pastor doesn’t really have any say in anything. Other challenges, I think when you’re structured this way is that overstaffing really emerges because we aren’t getting any of the efficiencies of alignment. And typically there’s like a lack of accountability because no one usually owns outcomes beyond attendance numbers at these affinity based programs and events. So again, the lead pastor, sometimes it’s an executive pastor, ends up being the one who has to manage across all those silos, which can be exhausting and it’s really unsustainable over time.
Sean:
Absolutely. Alright, so let’s talk about span of care, because honestly, this might be the most uncomfortable kind of mirror that we’re gonna hold up for pastors, but it’s one of the biggest structural landmines that we see in churches. What does a healthy span of care actually look like versus what we’re walking into in most churches?
Amy:
I’m glad you asked that. In fact, I was just with a group of pastors up in Connecticut — Vision New England — and we spent a few hours talking about church health, metrics, alignment, decision rights, and one of the questions they had was literally, what is a healthy span of care for pastors? And you know, I think it’s different for different people and it’s different based on what role you hold and what responsibilities you have. For me, when I was on the executive team at my church, four to six was my sweet spot. Now, I’ve seen some executive pastors who can effectively lead six to eight leaders. There are some leaders who can lead one person really well. Many lead pastors are actually in that category. But the key for determining a healthy span of care is determining how many people you can effectively develop, coach and shepherd.
You know, in the church, if you’re a manager of people, you have a responsibility to know them, to pray for them, to coach, and give them feedback, to bring clarity to priorities so they can succeed. They should leave you better than when they came to you. And the higher up on the org chart you are, the more crucial this becomes because you influence how the rest of the managers lead.
So going back to my example from earlier with the executive pastor had 14 direct reports, it’s just likely when you have that many people, you’re just checking boxes, putting out fires, solving problems. But you don’t have the time to develop the leaders that have been entrusted into your care. And then take those 14 — how do you think they’re leading the people under them? Likely they will model what’s been modeled to them. They’re checking boxes, putting out fires, solving problems. But they’re not developing others.
So this has this cascading effect throughout the structure, throughout the organization. You know, when 8, 10, 12, 14 people report to a lead pastor, executive pastor or ministry leader, that’s not a team — it’s a crowd. So this is why we bang the drum all the time to hire leaders who have the leadership gifting for your leadership positions. The flatter your organization, the more likely the roles have been filled with implementers instead of leaders. And when that’s in place, again, everything just escalates back up to the top of the organization.
Sean:
You just said, that’s not a team, it’s a crowd. I love that saying — that’s gold. And here’s what I’ve seen. When everything escalates back to the top, the lead pastor doesn’t just get busier. They actually get worse at their job. Because all that stuff that matters the most — vision, culture, developing leaders, teaching — that stuff requires mental and emotional margin in your schedule. And if you’re spending all of it putting out fires and managing that crowd that you talked about, you just have nothing left. So that brings me to the role that I want to dig into next because I think it creates more murkiness in growing churches than almost anything else. Let’s talk about the executive pastor. What are you seeing in the tension between the lead pastor, senior pastor role and the executive pastor?
Amy:
You know, when I think about the executive pastor, I think there’s often a fear and maybe a misunderstanding around the role of the executive pastor. I think that staff leaders on the team can feel like if that role’s put in place, everyone will be cut off from the lead pastor. It’s not true. But I think that’s a fear. Sometimes the lead pastor themselves feel like they’re dodging their responsibility by installing that role.
Sean:
True.
Amy:
You know, what will I do? What will people think of me if that role’s in place? They kind of feel guilty, like their load and the executive pastor’s load is out of balance. And I’ve also worked with many a lead pastor that has a bit of an executive pastor wiring, and they hold onto that role a little too long, kind of like being the lead pastor and the executive pastor simultaneously.
But in larger churches, in growing churches, the executive pastor role is so important. When an effective executive pastor is in place, the lead pastor can focus on those four roles they can’t delegate, right? Being the spiritual leader in teaching, the vision caster, the culture champion and leader of leaders. And I often say you can’t compare a lead pastor to a secular CEO. A secular CEO runs in quarters. A lead pastor has a public final exam most weekends. And that’s why they need someone to drive ministry execution, strategic planning, and lead a healthy and high performing team. This executive pastor — it’s the integrator role that needs to exist in every healthy organization. Someone who takes the vision and makes it operational.
And when the right executive pastor is in place, and the relationship and trust between the lead and executive pastors is right, it is a game changer for ministry teams. And honestly, it’s a game changer for the lead pastor when we talk about how structure can create the conditions for burnout. This is one of the keys to just exhaling and finding the right seat again. It’s just a game changer. It sets the team up for alignment, creates an environment for a healthy, growing culture. But when that role is missing, or if the wrong leader is in that role, then you know who all that work falls on? It falls back on the lead pastor.
Sean:
The lead pastor. Yep.
Amy:
Yep. So when all that falls on the lead pastor, what’s lost is job satisfaction, development, working in the ministry instead of on it.
Sean:
Yeah. You mentioned this, and I think this is important to call out — that guilt piece is real with many senior pastors, because I’ve sat with them and they almost feel like bringing in an executive pastor is kind of admitting defeat. Like, shouldn’t I be able to handle this? But here’s how I think they should think about reframing it. You don’t hire an executive pastor because your leadership is weak. You hire one because you’re finally being honest about what you are actually called to do. You know, a lead pastor with a great executive pastor isn’t doing less — they’re actually doing more of what only they can do. And the churches where that relationship is healthy, man, you can feel it. The team gets aligned, the lead pastor has energy, and the mission is actually moving forward. And when it’s missing, we have one person who is quietly absorbing everything themselves. And then it’s only a matter of time.
Amy:
To get back to where we started this podcast, a sabbatical for that lead pastor is not gonna help. Putting up more boundaries for that lead pastor is not gonna help this thing of burnout. It’s a structural issue.
Sean:
That’s good. Okay. So a lead pastor is listening right now and nodding along — maybe nodding a little too hard — at this point, what’s the first structural question they should actually be asking?
Amy:
Yeah, I think there are three questions actually. So the first, I would just say start by mapping out your span of care, right? How many people report directly to you. And then ask yourself, are they leaders or shepherds? Are they leaders or doers? Are they leaders or specialists? And is that span of care healthy and helpful for you? Is it healthy and helpful for those you are leading? And if it’s too many, how did you get there? You know, look back at the story to figure out what you can learn from that. And then I would ask, what’s holding you back from right-sizing that number of direct reports? So that’s kind of the first area I’d lean in on — span of care.
Then ask, is there an integrator function in your church? If the answer is that’s me, then you have a structural gap to address. But if the answer is yes — but what’s the but, right? Is it the right role? Wrong person, right person, wrong structure? Maybe they just have too many things on their plate and they’re not really focused as the executive pastor. So process the integrator function.
And then third, ask yourself, is our ministry aligned or is it siloed? Do we have shared targets for reaching and discipling people? Or is every ministry determining their own wins? Sean, like you mentioned earlier, I think if you can get to the answers of those questions, you’re gonna get some clarity on what your right next steps are. And I would just say, don’t wait until you’re burned out to make structural changes. You won’t have the energy or the clarity to do it well then. So if any of this is connecting with you, go through those questions, listen to the rest of the series, and let’s take some steps to get your structure supporting you.
Sean:
Yeah, Amy. And to add to that, there’s another layer here. And it’s something that we call the momentum trap because some of the most burned out pastors that I’ve talked to aren’t actually in declining churches. They’re in growing churches — things are working, attendance is up. That momentum is real. And that actually makes it harder to stop and fix structure because who wants to pump the brakes when it feels like you’re finally winning.
Amy:
Right!
Sean:
So talk to me about that tension, because I think it sneaks up on a lot of churches.
Amy:
Yeah. You know, we talk about this in the book, The Unstuck Church, that our founder Tony Morgan wrote. But when you’re in this phase of momentum growth — this is after launch and you’re at that point where people are just coming — you’re focused on making space. There’s a buzz, come and see. You don’t have a lot of policies and systems at this point. You’re very flexible with change and things like that. Growth creates momentum and momentum feels great, but over time, it masks a lot of the structural dysfunction. So when you’re busy and things are working, it feels like the wrong time to stop and build systems. But that’s exactly what you need to do because the next phase you’re heading into is strategic growth. And strategic growth is not momentum growth anymore — it’s like, we need to create some systems. Growth innately necessitates establishing systems to keep this growing larger church aligned.
When you have no systems and you have rapid growth, ministry leaders are likely carrying everything pretty manually. And that’s not leadership, that’s heroism and it’s not sustainable. But the churches that sustain health through growth are the ones that are building structure ahead of, or during growth, not after burnout forces the conversation. You know, every growing church should know what their growth plans are for their structure. Like what are the priority hires that need to be on deck? When do we pull the trigger for that? What does the next version of our org chart look like? What new leaders do we need to identify and develop now so that we have a bench when the time comes to add a new leader? Things like that. And this is where I go back to — these are the things that we want the executive pastor and the senior leadership team to be giving time to. We’re getting our eyes above that waterline of growth and we’re working on things related to structure before we get there so that we have a plan.
Sean:
Yeah. That’s good, Amy. I actually think we should print a t-shirt that says that’s not leadership, that’s heroism and it’s not sustainable, because I think there’s a lot of people serving in ministry roles that need that reminder. That’s really good. You know, we often look at it and we call it dedication or sacrifice, but a lot of times what we’re actually celebrating is a structure that’s quietly just failing with one person holding it all together through sheer willpower. And that willpower really has an expiration date on it.
Amy:
Yeah, it does.
Sean:
Amy, let’s wrap up today’s conversation. It has been a great start to the series. Any final thoughts from you?
Amy:
Yeah. If you’re a pastor and this episode stirred something in you, don’t dismiss it. Pay attention to it. Burnout isn’t inevitable, but structural dysfunction often is — especially in growing churches — until someone names it and does something about it. So we’re gonna keep pulling on this thread over the next few episodes: how your senior leadership team should actually function, how to build a team around your wiring, and some personal habits to help sustain your health over the long haul. So this is just episode one of this series, so stay with us for the next three weeks.
Sean:
Yeah. And thank you so much for joining us for this episode. If something in this conversation hit a little too close to home for you, don’t brush that off — that’s worth paying attention to. Share this episode with a pastor or a church leader who needs to hear it. And if you’re realizing your church has some structural issues that we talked about today—span of care problems, fuzzy roles, a missing integrator on your team—The Unstuck Group can help. We work with churches to assess their staffing and structure and find the specific changes that will actually move the needle toward a healthier, more sustainable organization. You can get started at theunstuckgroup.com and also subscribe to make sure you don’t miss the rest of the series. You can do that at theunstuckgroup.com/podcast, and we’ll be back next week. And trust me, it gets even more specific from here. So until then, have a great week.
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