Management Is Not a Dirty Word (Part 2)
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Being a part of the Body of Christ means we each have different roles.
If we’re going to be a healthy body of Christ, then we need to talk to one another, communicate with one another, watch one another’s back, and grow in our abilities to play the role He has placed us in.
We ALL need honest feedback around what we are doing well, and on how we can get better. Teams that do this well are healthier and probably accomplish more. And that’s what we want: healthy and high-performing teams, accomplishing the mission God has given us.
In this episode, Sean and I explore how creating a culture where feedback flows freely strengthens relationships, develops people, and increases the effectiveness of our ministries.
Clarity and kindness are both essential to having a healthy culture of feedback. [episode 417] #unstuckchurch Share on X Blind spots exist for all of us because we can never really know what it's like to be on the other side of ourselves. [episode 417] #unstuckchurch Share on X When the motivation for providing feedback is aligned to helping the people you lead get better, it makes the words come so much easier. [episode 417] #unstuckchurch Share on X What gets noticed gets repeated. [episode 417] #unstuckchurch Share on X
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More Episodes In This Series
Management vs Leadership – Episode 416
Numbers Are Not the Enemy – Episode 418
How to Train Your Managers – Episode 419
Hiring & Managing Gen Z Leaders (with Russ Ewell) – Episode 420
Transcript
Sean:
I will bet there’s no shortage of things happening in your church. Kids ministry, students, groups, outreaches, special events—the list probably goes on. Keeping communication clear across it all can be exhausting. With ChurchCopy.ai, you can turn a simple event description into a complete communication package, emails, posts, text, and more. All working together to create awareness, build anticipation, and provide follow-up. And it’s all organized in one place in your church’s voice. You can get started for free at churchcopy.ai/unstuck. That’s churchcopy.ai/unstuck.
Well, welcome to the Unstuck Church Podcast. I’m Sean, your host here again with Amy Anderson. And today we’re continuing our series on why management is not a dirty word in ministry. Last week we talked about the difference between leadership and management, and this week we’re actually gonna focus on how to develop a feedback culture in your church team. Amy, why is this topic specifically so important for church leaders?
Amy:
Well, let’s start by acknowledging that church leaders have the most important mission in the world. The mission given to us by Jesus in Matthew 28, to go and make disciples of all nations. And as followers of Jesus, we’ve all been given spiritual gifts to accomplish that mission. You know, followers that make up this body of Christ. And then Paul teaches us in first Corinthians 12 that each of us are a part of the body. But we’re different parts with different roles. And he created like this dependency on each other. Right? That each part is dependent on the other parts if we’re gonna be healthy. And I think God created us to be dependent on each other, you know? He wanted us to need other people to complete the body.
So to answer the question, why this topic of feedback is so important, it’s because that’s how he’s designed us. If we’re gonna be a healthy body of Christ, then we need to talk to one another. We need to communicate with one another, watch one another’s back, and then grow in our abilities to play the role he’s placed us in. As it says in Proverbs 27, we are to sharpen one another. And in Ephesians, Paul calls us to speak the truth in love to one another. He says, doing this, we will no longer be immature like children. Instead by speaking the truth in love, we will grow in every way more like Christ who is the head of the body—the church. So that’s the spiritual answer.
Sean:
That’s a good one.
Amy:
The human answer is that we all need honest feedback around what we’re doing well and how we can get better. Right? Teams that do this well are healthier and probably accomplish more, and that’s what we want. We want healthy and high-performing teams. Accomplishing again, this great mission that God has given us. So today we’re gonna explore how creating a culture, right, where feedback flows freely, how it actually strengthens relationships, develops people, and increases the effectiveness of our ministries.
Sean:
Sounds like a great conversation. So let’s just dive right into it. Why do you think so many ministry leaders struggle with giving feedback to the members on the team?
Amy:
Yeah, and they do. I mean, for all of our listeners right now, I don’t think any of us love this topic. Right? It gets uncomfortable and I think it’s harder in ministry for a couple of reasons. And first, and what I think is probably the biggest reason ministry leaders struggle to give one another feedback is because there are a lot of people-people in ministry. And I can say that with some authority because I’ve worked with hundreds of ministry teams now over the years, and one of the tools that we use during the engagements is a DISC-based assessment called Leading from Your Strengths. And one thing the assessment does, it puts people’s results either on the top half of the wheel or the bottom half of the wheel. And the people on the top half are people who tip towards getting stuff done first. And then relationships come second.
Whereas the people on the bottom half of the wheel, that represents people who tip towards people in relationships first, and then the work comes second. Now, that doesn’t mean that people on the top half of the wheel only wanna get things done and don’t care about people.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
Just like it doesn’t mean the people on the bottom half the wheel only care about relationships and don’t wanna get stuff done. It’s just that all of us, we typically, we will tip one way or the other first. And again, I’ve looked at hundreds of these now, these wheels, maybe thousands, honestly, and I would say that 75 to 80% of the ministry leaders that we’ve assessed at the Unstuck Group, and honestly maybe even more fall on the bottom half of the wheel. These are people-people and you know, this makes sense to me. A lot of us go into ministry because we love and care about people. And there’s so much that’s great about those of us on the people half, but there’s also some downsides to it.
Now, Sean, I know you are a top-of-the-wheel person. I am. So you may not resonate with some of these I’ll share, but being a people person myself, here’s how we feel when we think about giving other people feedback. Constructive feedback, right? Things that are uncomfortable to say.
Sean:
Sure.
Amy:
First, we fear that giving our feedback to this other person will disrupt our relationship with that person. And second, we don’t like conflict, so we just don’t wanna go there. We’d rather just keep the peace. So this means that people-people, we tend to avoid difficult conversations to protect relationships. We prefer to be kind and skip the hard stuff. So
Sean:
What you’re saying is that the top of the wheel, people like me are better at giving feedback. Is that right?
Amy:
Oh, no, you have your issues too.
Sean:
Well, I know that.
Amy:
Top of the wheel people, again, those who tip towards getting stuff done first, they don’t struggle so much as giving feedback, but rather how they give it, they can lack kindness. And we have to remember, Paul taught us truth and love, and our friend Lance Witt, who we featured on the podcast last week, would say it this way. He would say, as ministry leaders, we need to be clear and kind. Clarity is very natural for the top of the wheel people. Kindness is second nature for bottom half of the wheel. But clarity and kindness are both essential to having a healthy culture of feedback.
Sean:
And Amy, I think clarity actually is kindness, right?
Amy:
Yeah. You would, and it is, it is when it’s delivered with kindness, but so that’s the first reason I think we can struggle to give one another feedback. Many of us just have not taken the time to develop the skills that we really weren’t naturally hardwired with. The second reason, many ministry leaders really didn’t receive any formal management training. We talked about that a little bit last week. Right? Seminaries might have taught us how to preach and care for people, but not how to develop other people. And Sean, that’s why I think our staffing and structure engagement is so helpful to churches because we talk about the people side of an organization.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
And at the end of the day, that’s what a church is. It’s an organization made up of people, and there are organizational principles many ministry leaders have just never been exposed to. And learning how to effectively give and receive feedback is one of those critical skill sets that any of us who are leading other people need to be good at. And honestly, not for our sake, but for the sake of those that we lead.
And I’ll just add one more. The last main reason, I think why in ministry we can struggle to give one another feedback. And again, this is unique to the church world, but it’s because we can often see our staff team as family.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
And we’ve said this before, and sometimes we are literally family if we look at staff teams. And this family metaphor, it creates challenges because it’s harder to give constructive criticism to family. You know, your mom, your dad, your uncle, whatever.
Sean:
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, what happens then when a feedback is absent or it’s just not effective on a church team?
Amy:
Yeah. When this muscle’s underdeveloped, two things come to mind. The first is just mediocrity. Really with no challenge, no sharpening, and sometimes no accountability. We just leave a lot on the field. We don’t get better. We just kind of maintain, we don’t drift into becoming better leaders, better people, better ministers, all that. It takes effort. And honestly that that’s not an environment I wanna work in.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
I wanna win, I wanna grow, I want a culture that brings out the best in me. And I have been blessed both in the corporate world and in ministry, to have worked in cultures where feedback was normal and helpful. So that’s the first thing that comes to mind. The second is this concept of pseudo community. Okay. Pseudo community refers to a group of people that appear harmonious and close. But avoids honest, sometimes uncomfortable truth telling because difficult feedback is, you know, suppressed then real issues, they just kind of stay underground. And relationships, they’re pretty surface level and it feels peaceful, but it’s fragile, right? Tension builds, blind spots persist, and trust doesn’t deepen.
And again, in teams like this predictable behavior show up, right. There’s conflict avoidance because people wanna keep the peace. Meetings are very amiable, but often concerns go unsaid. We never quite get to the last 10% of what we need to say. And then you’ve experienced as I’m sure Sean, but you know, we make these decisions in the meeting, but then once we’re all in the hallways, that’s where all the critiques start to, you know, come in the meetings after the meetings.
Sean:
Right. Right.
Amy:
So the opposite is a healthy community where people practice truth and love, where they give clear and kind feedback and they reduce, you know, blind spots so the team can grow together.
Sean:
Absolutely. I’ve heard you talk about blind spots before and we’ve addressed some of that on the podcast. Can you unpack that a little bit more?
Amy:
Yeah. There’s a tool I use when I work with ministry teams. I actually learned it when I was in college. It’s a marketing in a marketing class of all places, but it’s a tool called the Joe Harry Window. And it was created by two guys named Joe and Harry. And it’s just a simple four box illustration. So if you’re listening, just imagine a four box kind of illustration. In one box, we call that the open space. And this is just the stuff that I know about myself and that you know about me. Like, it might be I bring energy to meetings, or I’m creative, or it could be sometimes I talk too much, I know it, you know it, my colleagues know it. It’s just the stuff that everybody knows. It’s the open space. Then another one would be the hidden space. This is the stuff that I know about me, but you don’t know.
Sean:
Okay. Okay.
Amy:
I just have not chosen to disclose it or to share It could be things like my opinions on something, the feelings I have on various issues or my fears or insecurities. Part of my story, I might keep those things hidden. Then there’s the stuff in the box that I don’t know about myself and you don’t know either. We’ll just call that the unknown space. Things that haven’t been discovered or revealed yet.
But the one I wanna highlight or call out is the fourth quadrant, and that’s the blind spot. This is the stuff that I don’t know about myself, but everybody else does. Those are our blind spots and blind spots are dangerous. They can hurt us. These areas are in full view of everyone except me. So here’s some examples of blind spots. Okay? That person that interrupts people all the time, they probably don’t even realize they’re doing it. It’s just a habit of interrupting. Okay? Everyone else is irritated by it. That person doesn’t know it. That person who has the habit of walking around the office and interrupting other people’s work time to socialize. That colleague that has a resting pastor face, I just dunno how else to say that.
Sean:
That’s a good way.
Amy:
And unintentionally is communicating things like, I’m bored, I’m uninterested. I think that’s a terrible idea. This was a long time blind spot for my husband. We used to work together. I’d walk by his office, and he’d be giving someone some feedback, and I’m like, they’re scared to death right now because of what his face is communicating. But I lovingly shared that with him, and he works on it more intentionally now, like to raise his eyebrows and smile when he talks.
But blind spots exist for all of us because we can never really know what it’s like to be on the other side of ourselves. And in the examples above, like I said, the first person might think they’re a great listener, or the person who walks to the office thinks that people love them and people love to socialize with them. So going back to your original question, what happens when feedback is absent or ineffective in a church team? I think we underserve our teammates allowing these blind spots to bring down chemistry, right? Healthy organizations, healthy teams help people reduce their blind spots by providing clear and kind feedback.
Sean:
Yeah. That is a great overview of why feedback is important, Amy, and if we don’t have listeners leaning in at this point for a solution, I don’t think feedback will ever work in their church. So they probably tune out at this point. So let’s get onto the solutions. How can church leaders begin to create a healthier feedback culture in their team?
Amy:
Yeah. Changing a culture always begins at the top. So this means the feedback. That feedback needs to be a muscle that’s developed at the top of the organization first. And there are hundreds of books written about giving and receiving feedback, but I always appreciate Patrick Lencioni ‘s books. You know, in one of them, he has this team exercise where the team provides one another feedback on what they do that helps the organization, and then one thing they do that gets in the way that holds the team back. And I probably didn’t quote that exactly right. But you get the gist, right? You get your senior leaders around the table and you start practicing feedback, and the exercise is designed where the lead pastor goes first, he or she asks, what am I doing that’s helping the organization? And then what’s one thing I’m doing that’s hurting the organization? And each team member answers that question, right?
Now, if you’re uncomfortable with feedback, that suggestion probably got very uncomfortable, but I’m telling you. It’s an easy way to start building this muscle. And then after the lead pastor goes, then we put the next person on the hot seat and they repeat that exercise. You know, if the top leaders are not comfortable with an exercise like that yet, then start somewhere else. Read a book together on feedback. You know, learn about the concepts, develop your language around it. I’ve read crucial conversations over the years. I think Lance mentioned a few on the last podcast. The point is, is that the organization is not going to be comfortable with feedback until the leaders get comfortable with feedback.
Sean:
That’s good. Okay. Yep.
Amy:
Second is find your motivation for providing feedback. Again, those of us on the people side of the wheel, I think we relate feedback to pain, embarrassment, discomfort. But what if the word feedback evoked positivity to you? I mean, I think it’s all about finding the right motivation when we provide feedback. Sean, I have managed teams now for 30 years, but in my first decade of leadership, giving feedback was really an underdeveloped tool in my tool belt, my leadership tool belt. But one day it clicked for me, if I could find my motivation, the right motivation for providing feedback, then it got easier because my mindset was, Hey, these are the people God’s put in my care, and it’s my job to bring out the best in them. When my motivation for providing the feedback was aligned to helping them get better, it made the words come so much easier. And I think that’s what they felt when I gave them the feedback.
And this wasn’t about being, this was about being for them, not being against them. Going back to the example of the blind spot, when I was providing feedback on a chemistry issue, that was a blind spot for them. I was serving them well by helping them see something that everybody else could see and they couldn’t. And of course our conversation, it was just me and my employee. So it wasn’t embarrassing or humiliating. It was helpful. So finding the right motivation is another first step to develop a culture of feedback. I think we leave a lot of feedback, necessary feedback, on the table. Because we’re uncomfortable. But again, we have to find the motivation to help that person.
Sean:
Yeah. That’s good.
Amy:
And third, I would just say, remember that feedback is not just about pointing out things that aren’t going well. Right? Developing a culture of feedback means we also leverage it to reinforce the good things that our team members are doing. What they bring to the table. You know, one of my leadership swing thoughts around feedback is encompassed in two phrases. First is what gets noticed gets repeated. So when I was the weekend leader at our church, honestly the most effective form of feedback was when I was recognizing the good things that my teammates were doing right.
Sean:
Right. Yep.
Amy:
And sometimes it was public, sometimes it was private, depending on the person, but when they did something great, I just made sure they knew it. And I think that catching people doing things right and letting them know you’ve noticed is one of the strongest forms of feedback. Because again, what gets noticed gets repeated.
And then the second part of that phrase is you get what you tolerate. And if you lead people, you know what I’m talking about. I think we’ve all hit those times when we’re frustrated with someone on the team and you wish they would behave differently or you wish they would fill in the blank. You know, as a manager, you have to look in the mirror first and tell yourself you get what you’re tolerating. So if you’re frustrated, I’m sure the people, other people around you are too, but this team member is under your care. So at the end of the day, you’re tolerating it. So that concept also gave me the courage to move in and have the tough conversations that I needed to have with people. So model it, find your motivation, and remember feedback is both to recognize achievement and address gaps.
Sean:
That’s really good. You know, it just hit me, Amy, as you were talking through that, and specifically when we were talking about finding your motivation. You know, in a coaching relationship, we expect feedback, right? I mean, we think about our sports teams, and we think about our coaches, and it’s actually the coach’s responsibility to provide feedback, both positive and that areas where teammates are lacking. Your football team in week one of this season just had an incredible comeback. And I watched the coach provide lots of feedback to a rookie quarterback on the sidelines.
Amy:
That’s right.
Sean:
That was expected.
Amy:
Thanks for talking about the Vikings.
Sean:
That’s right. You’re welcome. That was expected in that environment. But there’s something about in a, especially in a ministry setting, we don’t see ourselves from that perspective of a coach.
Amy:
Oh, great analogy.
Sean:
And because of that, it holds back the feedback that really needs to be shared. It’s really interesting. Let’s talk about some best practices. Amy, what are some of the best practices that you’ve seen around providing feedback?
Amy:
Yeah, this is something we do at our staffing and structure review, but we have to learn to be diagnostic around feedback. I say that because it’s important to do your prep work before giving people feedback, right? You need to identify what feedback is needed, what’s the most important feedback to give, right? We don’t wanna overwhelm people.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
And you also need to provide what needs to change going forward. So I like to break it down to character issues, chemistry issues, competency issues, and team culture issues. And I really liked the framework that was built out by the Table Group in the book, The Ideal Team Player. They took those three areas of character, chemistry, competence, and retitled them: humble, smart, and hungry. And if you haven’t read the book, you should read the book. A tool like that will give you a framework for how to provide feedback.
And I’ll give you just a quick example of the diagnostic work that preceded me giving feedback to two of my worship leaders back in the day. So I had one worship leader, and she actually would just, she would fill in on the weekends. So we had some staff worship leaders, but she would drop in at our various locations. She’s very loved. But when she led, she led out of her own style and it didn’t quite match the brand, if I could say it that way, of our worship experience.
Sean:
Sure.
Amy:
So while some people loved it, I also had to look through our filter. This, if I had invited my friend this week, I would’ve expected a different worship experience. So going forward, I affirmed her. I mean, she’s amazing, but I just said, going forward, I need you to lead by our brand expectations, not simply out of your natural style. So for me, that was a competence conversation or maybe a culture conversation in relation to what she was doing.
The second worship leader, we were doing rehearsal wind up to the weekend, and he had been a student worship pastor at the time, but was filling in on the weekend and during the rehearsal his pack didn’t work. So if you don’t know, this musicians all wear inner ear kind of things. And he took his pack off and he kicked it across the platform. And everyone saw that all of our volunteers, and here’s the guy who’s going to lead us before the throne here in a few hours. So how I gave that person feedback was on Monday I invited him into my office, I gave him a cup of water, I knocked his hand after he took the cup of water and then asked him why he spilled the water all over my desk. And he said, ’cause you bumped my arm. And I said, yep. I said, you got bumped this weekend and what spilled out did not reflect your heart very well.
This was a character conversation. This was more of an intervention, like what happened, there need not happen again. And he had to do some work to really address what was going on in his heart. So you can see addressing a character issue is very different than addressing a competence issue, which is different than addressing a blind spot or a chemistry issues. So for you and any other leaders on your team who are leading other people, right? We need to be thinking through the character chemistry, competence of their employees.
Sean:
That’s good.
Amy:
They should be praising them in the areas they’re thriving, and then they should be providing feedback for where there are gaps.
Sean:
Yeah. And like you said, Amy, people can’t change what they’re unaware of, right?
Amy:
Yeah. And if we skip the step of being diagnostic, we’ll end up either not giving feedback or we’ll just give very general feedback that’s not helpful. And I’m a big believer, words matter.
Sean:
Of course.
Amy:
And we need, we need to be clear and kind when we provide the feedback. And if we don’t think it through, we could say things that are very unclear, very unkind. I worked with one leader and he would literally say, so and so needs to be off the team. And I’d ask, well, why? And their response would be, well, they just don’t have “it.” Air quote, it. That is not good leadership. That is terrible coaching.
Which kind of leads me to my second point, best practice, you need to give people the opportunity to close the gap. So every employee should be given the opportunity to understand where they need to grow, and then given the time to close the gap, because change doesn’t happen overnight. Now if it’s a character issue that needs to be a quick fix. I mean, character is hard to change overnight, but if it’s a character issue, we’re not going beyond 30 days with something like that.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
But if it’s a competency issue, people need time to learn to grow. And honestly, if you’ve been churning as a manager for six months because you’re frustrated with someone’s competence, but you haven’t given them any feedback, then that’s your problem. Because now they’re gonna need another six months to turn it around. And then third, just build this expectation of building feedback into your regular one-on-ones. You know, a good performance management system happens at every one-on-one, not annually. You might need an annual finish line, but managers should be having performance conversations all the time.
Sean:
That’s right.
Amy:
And again, if this is a muscle that hasn’t been built in your team, start with the top leaders. They need to begin modeling what you want happening for the next level of leaders. And you know, when I was building a healthy feedback culture within our worship ministry areas, I started by reading books with my team leaders. We were a large organization, so I had leaders of leaders on my team, and probably dating myself, but they were books like First, Break All the Rules by Marcus Buckingham and Integrity by Dr. Henry Cloud. And yes, we learned some things, but more than that we were developing a common language that I could use to reinforce expectations on our team.
If you’re building this muscle, read through The Ideal Team Player by Patrick Lencioni or really any resource from the table group or High-Impact Teams by Lance Witt. And then at your one-on-ones, provide some feedback on the concepts you’re learning. Better yet, start by asking for feedback on yourself. If you’ve been talking through some concept with your team, if you’ve been reading this book, ask your team how you’re doing at it. I mean, as you model this, it will begin to lead the organization towards building the skills for giving and receiving feedback.
Sean:
Well, Amy, honestly, you shared a lot of great ideas and examples around creating the culture feedback today. For leaders who want to improve their feedback skills, what’s a practical kind of just first step that they could take this week to begin building this muscle?
Amy:
I’d start by going back to modeling the feedback culture you wish to have. Ask for feedback yourself, model the vulnerability you wanna see from your team and start small: questions like, what’s one thing I could do differently that would strengthen our team? And again, if this is new to you, it’s going to feel uncomfortable for the people you’re asking feedback from. So I would even recommend putting some structure around it. It could sound something like this. Next week at our one-on-ones, I’m gonna ask each of you to give me some feedback. And here’s my question, what’s one thing I could do differently that would strengthen us as a team? And I don’t want you to worry about my feelings, I really want the feedback. You know, the one-on-one will give us a safe space to unpack it. So be thinking about that, it could be something in my chemistry that needs to shift. Maybe there’s something I could do better when it comes to being the manager of this team. Whatever it is, I really like to hear it, so please be prepared to share your thought at my next, at our next one-on-one. Right? And then at the meeting, the one-on-one I would reiterate, that you’re grateful for their feedback and that they don’t have to worry about your feelings. That your motivation behind this is really just to become a better manager. And just tell them your feedback and input will actually help me be a better manager. So that’s something I think any leader listening today could do this week,
Sean:
Amy. I love these conversations where you have a particular passion and an expertise in these areas. And this has been one of those episodes, so it’s been great. Any final thoughts before we wrap up today?
Amy:
Yeah, a couple. Feedback, you know, again, is such an important aspect of leading a healthy team. I mentioned earlier that ministry teams have some unique challenges and one of those challenges was around, you know, seeing the staff team as family. But I loved what John Gordon said on the Carey Nieuwhof podcast a month or so ago. He said that those teams need to acknowledge. So if this is you, if you’re a family, say yes, we are a great family, right? We love and care for one another. Well, but we need to be a better team. And being a better team means embracing a culture of feedback. So I hope that gives some people some language.
Sean:
That’s good.
Amy:
And I just wanna loop back to ultimately, again, this is about stewardship. If God has placed us in a role where we’re leading other people, we’re responsible for helping them grow into their full potential. And you know, we had a great model for this in Jesus. Jesus gave direct feedback to his disciples. He was balanced in his truth and love. And the good news is as you work on becoming a receiver of feedback, it’ll start to change their resistance to feedback. Leaders who receive feedback, they create safe spaces for others to do the same. So I’m hoping you can take some next steps out of today’s podcast.
Sean:
That’s really good. Well, thanks listeners for joining us on this week’s podcast. Next week we’re gonna continue our series on management by discussing just how to set clear expectations and goals for your ministry team. So make sure you subscribe to get the show notes for each of our week’s conversation. You’ll get the leader conversation guide as well. All of that will come through your email, and you can sign up at theunstuckgroup.com/podcast. And if you’re a church leader that’s facing some of the challenges with your team that we’ve been talking about through this series, we’d love to help. You can reach out to us at theunstuckgroup.com and start a conversation with us today. So next week we’re back with episode three of this series, and we’ll see you then.
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