Management Is Not a Dirty Word (Part 5)
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Gen Z’s interest in church is rising.
Most churches want to reach the next generation, but they often lack the practical tools and strategies to make it happen. Russ Ewell from Bay Area Christian Church is helping young men and women step into leadership and faith, and he has a valuable perspective to share.
In this bonus episode, I had the chance to connect with Russ about Gen Z’s interest in church to talk about what’s actually working to reach and develop Gen Z leaders and how his church is engaging them to become future leaders and managers in ministry.
Not only are Gen Z people going to church more, but they’re also going to therapists more. They’re looking for help. [episode 420] #unstuckchurch Share on X This generation is no different than any other human generation that has ever lived. They need the most powerful force on earth: the Word of God. [episode 420] #unstuckchurch Share on X Create an environment where you’re talking about what matters to Gen Z. Be aware of what’s going on in their world. [episode 420] #unstuckchurch Share on X If you're gonna work with and develop younger people, you have to start with the diminishing of your own pride, your own ego, and your own need to be at the center. [episode 420] #unstuckchurch Share on X
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More Episodes In This Series
Management vs Leadership – Episode 416
Developing a Feedback Culture – Episode 417
Numbers Are Not the Enemy – Episode 418
How to Train Your Managers – Episode 419
Transcript
Sean:
Well, welcome listeners to a special episode of the Unstuck Church Podcast. You know, most churches wanna reach the next generation, but they often lack the practical tools and strategies to make it happen. In this episode, Amy had the chance to connect with Russ Ewell of Bay Area Christian Church to talk about Gen Z’s rising interest in church, and how his church is engaging them to become future leaders and managers in ministry.
Before we get into the conversation, though, I wanna say thanks to ChurchCopy.ai for helping make today’s podcast possible. You know, typically, there’s no shortage of things happening in your church with kids ministry, student ministry groups, outreaches, special events. The list seems to go on. Keeping communication clear across it all can be exhausting. With ChurchCopy.ai, you can turn a simple event description into a complete communication package: emails, posts, texts, and more working together to create awareness, build anticipation, and then drive engagement while still making sure you follow up well—all organized in one place, all in your church’s voice. You can start for free today at churchcopy.ai/unstuck. That’s churchcopy.ai/unstuck.
Now let’s get into Amy’s conversation with Russ Ewell.
Amy:
Pastor Russ, as we begin, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your church?
Russ:
Yes. I’m the executive minister of the Bay Area Christian Church, and we have nine sites, nine locations. And, you know, our focus is sort of, we have sort of a simple focus that making God known and doing good. We believe that that is how we best imitate the ministry of Jesus and how we reflect him in our day-to-day lives. Whether someone believes in God or doesn’t believe in God, whether someone goes to church or doesn’t go to church, we wanna make God known. And then even when people don’t go to church, we want to do good.
Over throughout the pandemic, what we did is we began to transition to having two lead ministers and their wives that lead each side of the bay. So one, the East Bay and the other, the West Bay. Day to day as we start to be able to share leadership even more and more effectively. Which has freed up my wife and myself to be able to do more in different things. One of the things I do is digital. We have a very strong effort we make in ministry, we make, called eLife, and that’s including special needs children and adults in every facet of life. Not only church, where we have a spiritual resource ministry, which is designed so that when a person with special needs child puts their child into the children’s ministry, they have a way to be included and involved with the typical children.
And then we also have partnerships with the Earthquakes. That’s our professional soccer team. The Golden State Warriors, that’s our professional basketball team, with some of the colleges Cal, for e football, e hoops, and e soccer. I began e soccer in the late nineties with my sons and about eight of their friends. It’s now multiple different sites, both around the Bay Area and around the country and around the world where children with special needs, adults with special needs, play sports with their typical peers, and are able to not only involve themselves in athletics and fitness, but they’re able to build lifelong friendships. So that’s a big part of what we do.
And then also finally, one of our goals that we’ve had over the last few years is that by the time, you know, we get, we’ve got a 3, 5, 10 year plan, but 50% of our sites will be led by a millennial or a Gen Z person. And we’re pretty close already, which is good. But we’ve got a little distance to go. We have several of our groups being led by millennials, and we have some Gen Z folks that are coming up to be able to actually lead the sites, which is what we believe is the best way to ensure the church continues to make an impact down the road, but also that it has the necessary diversity to reach anyone anywhere all the time.
Amy:
I love that. And that’s actually why we’re talking today. You know, most churches want to reach the next generation, but they often lack the practical tools and strategies that can make it happen. And so I wanted to talk to you a little bit today about what’s working to reach and develop these Gen Z leaders in the church. So let me start here. Maybe, statistics show surprisingly that Gen Z’s interest in church is actually on the rise. And just from your perspective, what you’re seeing, why do you think that is? Why is this interest in the Gen Zs rising now?
Russ:
Well, I think one of the important things to do in my mind is to make sure that we look and see beyond what goes on in the church. That’s how we approach it here. We want to be involved in our community, and we wanna be aware of what’s going on in the world. We want be engaged with people that are in the world. And regardless of whether they go to church or not, that’s important. Some people that go to church don’t feel comfortable doing that. We feel it’s essential.
One of the people that I follow, or a few of them, Jonathan Haidt, who wrote the book, The Anxious Generation, talks a lot about technology and its impact on mental health and wellbeing of children and young adults. And also David Brooks. David Brooks recently appeared on the appeared on the Tyler Cowen podcast. And he said something very interesting that I think makes the point and ties into how to think about this. ‘Cause too often, I think we think about reaching individuals in isolation, meaning how do we get them to come to our church? Or how do we provide for them? So they come to the church. And you mentioned earlier that there’s more interest by Gen Z, and I think that’s true. David Brooks said this, and it’s backed up by statistics on the conversations with Tyler. First, the bad news and then the good news, the bad news is that young people are tremendously sad. The number of high school students who say they’re persistently hopeless and despondent is 45%. The number of young people who say they have no friends is up by fourfold since 2000. The number of people who say they’re lonely is 36%.
And so when you look at the panoramic view, so to speak, not only are Gen Z people going to church, but they’re also going to therapists more. They’re looking for help. And so I think we wanna make sure we are grateful that they come to church, but we need to make sure we understand that they’re showing interest in a lot of things. And so that means they have a need. And that need, I think, is because there’s a tremendous sadness there. And one individual that’s quoted by David Brooks that he talked to was a student. He said they felt like they were the most rejected generation. He said, that’s why I think we are the way we are. And then it’s because, you know, 96% of people who apply to Harvard, not that everybody does, 96% of people who apply to Harvard get rejected. And that, and right now, he quoted a quote about internships at companies. People apply to 250 internships just to get one. That means that many times…
Amy:
Lot of rejection.
Russ:
Yeah. They’re getting rejected. And so when you put in the pandemic, and you combine it with the competitiveness to make it economically in America, and you add the rejection, and then you add whatever’s going on, that creates the mental health challenge that I think is faced by this generation more than previous generations. There’s a huge need. And Jesus, you know, talks about that in John nine. That there’s gonna be a need, and we have to have compassion.
So I actually think the place you start is you start by, are we going to be a church of compassionate people? Are we gonna be a church that says, okay, Jesus said, deny yourself, take up your cross. Are we gonna do that? Are we gonna look at our problems, look at our challenges, look at our responsibilities, our situations, our interests, our pleasures, whatever they may be. And say, I’m willing to subjugate that to be able to help people that are in this age category, not just to make church larger, but because there’s such a great need. And so I think it starts there with a heart condition. And can you put that into the culture of your church, which is what we try to do.
Amy:
Right. Well, so once these young people, these Gen Z folks walk through your doors, how do you take it to the next step? How do you keep them engaged and then rooted in their faith?
Russ:
Well, you know, one of our sort of core convictions and core principles is to be a church that’s biblical. And so we are very focused on and emphasize the Bible. In fact, that’s why I created years ago, deepspirituality.com, which actually is a website, which is more than a website. It has video, it has podcast, it has articles, devotionals for all different types of folks. Some of them are starter devotionals where you’re just getting started learning your Bible. Others are my newsletter, The Chemistry Lab, where it’s much more in depth and there’s a lot more there. It’s more comprehensive. But the biggest issue, I think, is not losing faith in the Bible. Isaiah 55 says that the word of God does not go out void. Understanding that this generation is no different than any other human generation that has ever lived.
The word of God speaks to the soul. The word of God speaks to the heart. It illuminates the mind. It changes lives. And so, actually, we’ve had tremendous success because I think we don’t try first to make the music contemporary, although I think we have good music. We don’t try to add a bunch of different things to make younger people think we’re young and we’re relatable. ‘Cause we’re young. We believe the word of God is the most powerful force on earth. And so we emphasize it, not only in the pulpit, but the Christians in our church believe in taking their Bible and studying the Bible with their friends or each other, helping each other through the various challenges. If someone’s facing a mental health challenge, you want to help them, support them in their mental health therapies. But you also wanna provide for them the ultimate answer to every question, which is the word of God in a relation to God. So we emphasize the Bible, we emphasize relation with God. That’s a big deal for us. And teaching that and making sure that’s getting out there, not only on Sundays, but during the week, that there’s a lot of emphasis on focus on God. Don’t get distracted by what people may think of you. Don’t get distracted by your own negative self-talk. Be able to stay focused on God. And so that’s a big deal.
And then the other thing is creating an environment where we’re talking about what matters to them. Meaning one Corinthians nine, becoming all things to all men. It’s easy for me, a Bruce Springsteen fan, to want to talk about Bruce all the time, which I do get Bruce in there. And I feel it’s my duty to make sure they not only know about Jesus, but they know about Bruce Springsteen. I think that’s important that I get that in there. That’s a joke for those who are wondering. But I have to be able to understand who Anderson Paak is and be able to quote his lyrics and talk about them and understand them so that not only, so not so that I can appear at my age to be their age, but so that I’m showing that I understand the times and that I’m able to understand what they’re experiencing.
So the Bible, the relationship with God, the ability to bring into your conversations and into your teaching, the kind of things that they’re hearing and listening to. You don’t have to try to act like you’re their age. I think that’s not authentic.
Amy:
Right, right.
Russ:
But when you act and you live as though you’re aware of what’s going on in their world and the world overall, I think it’s important. And look, if all the streaming services are trying to focus on the demographic between 18 and 45, it only makes sense that churches would learn from that and say, you better focus on that demographic. Or pretty soon your church doors will be closing.
Amy:
Yeah. What you’re saying, we would describe, as pastors, you need to understand who your, who’s in your mission field, and you need to adapt how you do things in order to relate and connect with them when we’re trying to reach them. So that’s reaching. Talk to me a little bit about some strategies you’ve got into place. You said your goal is to get 50% of the leaders in this Gen Z area in the future. How do you develop these Gen Z leaders?
Russ:
Yeah, one of the things that I think is real important is as a leader, and there are other leaders in our church that serve in complimentary roles with me on our team, men and women. We have a strong women’s leadership in our church. I think it’s important to say, because I think women need to lead, and young women need to see women that are older that they can look at as role models.
Amy:
They do.
Russ:
And that when they look at them as role models, they don’t just look at them as the person who stands with their husband, but they stand alone with their own identity and their own ability to contribute. My wife certainly does that on many levels. And so do several other women. So I wanna say that in order for people to understand what everything I’m talking about regarding how we develop leaders is men and women, and that there’s a balanced approach.
So for instance, every summer we hire interns and we hire scholars. Scholars are people that are in college. They may not be ready to be, say, someone who can take leadership of a campus or teen group or whatever, but they want to. And so we make them a scholar and we pay them to supplement their college education or college expenses. And then interns are people who really can take the helm and for three months, or for the whole year lead, this summer we hired 34 of them, 17 men, 17 women. They go into a training program all summer long. It’s not just, it’s Bible obviously. ‘Cause I mentioned that earlier, it’s relationship with God. But it’s also for a lot of people to be, in my view, you know, having been in religion classes and college and all that, one of the most important things I think ministers need is to learn how to be social. I mean, people may not like that, but I think it’s easy for a minister to be really knowledgeable about certain things that don’t matter to anyone because they haven’t built a relationship with them. And so building a relationship with the these folks and all people is important. And that’s love. And so we get them into programs where they’re able to do that.
They all work at our teen camp in the summer. And so they get hands-on work there. They’re worked with to know how to study with and inspire people in personal Bible studies. We work with them on making sure that they’re staying focused on and achieving their goals when it comes to college. Finding jobs, being able to know how to do that. Knowing how to help other people that are their peers, not only with the spiritual side of their life, but their financial side of their life, the emotional health side of their life. So we try to make sure they’re trained in every year we can. They get trained in how to use digital tools. ‘Cause that’s a big thing in our church. They get trained, if they’re interested in business, we may put ’em in the administrative side and give ’em a chance to develop that.
Our goal is this, every one of our staff people should be what we call a hybrid. What a lot of people would say vocational ministry, meaning they work in the ministry, but they also practice the skills. So we’ve had people who are software engineers, and they’re in the ministry. And so they actually work on software projects, and they do ministry. And we pay the salary. We don’t ask someone else to pay it. In some, you know, in some cases people want to pay them. And so they get paid by us and they get paid by someone else as well. But it’s all to create a well-rounded group.
So we try to grab people and get ’em involved, at least by their junior year of high school. We’re watching out for ’em by the time they’re a freshman or an eighth grader, just like college football would do. You look and you go, okay, does this person have potential? Okay. They have potential and you give them pathways to be able to contribute. Not everybody’s gonna go into the ministry. That’s not even necessary. But we want ’em all to become leaders who have opinions and convictions that as the church grows, maybe they’re working for one of the companies here in technology, but they come to the table and they’re spiritual, and they add something to the building of God’s kingdom and church.
And so those are a number of the things we do. We keep some of those people on all year long. We reevaluate them every semester to see if both they like what they’re doing and we like where they’re going. There’s not this hard and fast metric of you have to achieve this goal or that goal. It’s all about personal growth and your spirituality, your maturity, your character, and then making sure they all get a chance to, whether it’s in trade school or college, get the degree and get the training for their life to be able to flourish down the road.
Amy:
I just love where you’re meeting them right where they’re at. I mean, I can just tell this is a huge passion area as you’re talking about, you know, eyeing them as they’re growing up, looking for their giftings, considering, I mean, I think those of us who are way past our education years can forget what the load that is when you’re going to school. But acknowledging that and partnering with them. Here’s a question for you. What common mistakes do you see churches make when they’re trying to engage this next generation?
Russ:
Well, you know, the best way for me to explain that is talk about what I think our mistakes have been and challenges we continue to face. Alright. So number one is, this is in no particular order, but the first one I would say is having a vision for someone that they don’t want. And so I think it’s important that even if someone has leadership ability, talent, that we don’t want something for them that they don’t want for themselves. And it’s easy when you’re talking about seeking the kingdom first and doing what God wants to forget, that maybe this person just, it’s not in their heart to do it and not have them feel like they’re a failure or they’ve not done God’s will, or they’ve disappointed God because they wouldn’t do it. That’s probably one of the hardest things to navigate, because young people, you know, they wanna please and they want people to be happy with them. And so that’s one of the things we have to always keep an eye on. And, you know, sometimes people feel that anyway.
Amy:
Do you have an example or a story where that was a misstep you took?
Russ:
We can have someone who wants to be a leader and wants to be, you know, kind of in charge of things, but they can’t handle the stress and pressure of it, and they start to realize that and they don’t want to do it. And so then what might happen is someone’s working with ’em and saying, no, you know, we just gotta work on your relationship with God and we’ll get you there. And but that person’s just not built for it. It could be emotional health. It could be that they’ve got other things going on in their personal family life or their schoolwork. They can’t handle the major they’re in. So we faced all these, and then what can happen is that when we make the decision, hey, yeah, this isn’t really good for you.
Then we’ve had people get done and go, I feel like I got fired and I feel like I’m a complete failure. And so we have to be able to go back and go, remember, this program is about development. It’s not about the end game is you’re gonna do what, for instance, I do. And we’ve had to do that. I wouldn’t say that happens a lot because we monitor it along the way, but it does happen. And when it does happen, we feel like because this group is, they’re young in life and we’ve all faced it ourselves. So these are things that I’ve, myself, there’s a degree of pressure you feel when you’re younger, that older people don’t always have an awareness that you’re feeling.
Amy:
That’s right. That’s right.
Russ:
And so one of the ways we solve it and we work on it, is making sure that those younger people have someone closer to their age who’s been on that path. And so I would say we’ve faced this with people who’ve been in administrative sides of things. We’ve faced it when we’ve met people who’ve been, I want to be in the ministry, and maybe they can’t be, maybe they’re just not fit for it. And we have to help them understand that not being your gift doesn’t mean you don’t have them.
And so I’ll give you a perfect example that sort of encapsulates it all. And it’s a true story. One young guy graduated from a really great school here. One of the best schools here, actually one of the best schools in the world. And he came on, was an intern. And actually in working with us, and remember I told you we have hybrid. So we have people who will do multi well. He actually learned his programming with us because our guys taught him how to do that. Well, he went on to work for one of the top, I’m not gonna say which one, but one of the top three, four companies in Silicon Valley in the world. And he did really, really well, and extremely well and get better and better. But what he never lost, and we felt, and we talked to him and said, well, we think that’s probably the better path for you. You can do really well financially and life and the ministry’s not quite a match, you know, for you. And there’s a lot of things that go into that match. And I think one of them, you know, there’s, the people thing is big in ministry. Your ability and handling all the people’s stuff, that can be very stressful. And so that was about eight years ago.
Amy:
Okay.
Russ:
Today, and after making, as today, he and his wife both have come back into the ministry and are now serving as one of the leaders of one of our nine sites. And so that was an example of not a good fit. Now, you’ve not failed, highly successful in the working world, but they wanted, they just had it in their heart. They wanna do this. They’ve grown spiritually. They’ve matured. And maybe we didn’t see something, I don’t know, but it’s worked out great, you know? And so what I guess what I’m trying to say is yeah, we’re flawed, and we’re human. And so we have to try to be aware of that and work as a team. So no one feels like a failure. And everybody gets the fit that God wants ’em to have.
Amy:
Boy. And I’ll tell you, you know, the older adults on church teams, we’re just big kids. And we wrestle with that too. Sometimes. We long to be in a role that we don’t have the gifting for. And it’s, and I, you know, I coach churches all the time. It’s miserable if you get put in a role that God has not gifted you for. And so we have to hold loosely across the board to say, God, it’s, God does the placing from one Corinthians 12. It’s God who places us. And that’s a great example or a story where it was in God’s time where he stepped into leadership. Well, if a pastor or a church leader’s listening today and wants to start engaging Gen Z right into their ministries, what is the first step you’d encourage them to take?
Russ:
Well, you kind of hit on it, and I love what you just said. I could listen to you talk about that for a little while. The idea of getting the wrong fit. One of the best things that happened to me early in the ministry. ‘Cause I was an agnostic at best. Did not go to church, did not want to go to church, wanted to go into politics. So when I became a Christian, I only, I saw leadership in the same way I’d seen it in the world. And so I was like, you know, competitive, driven, goals. I need to be a leader. I need to be upfront. I was unaware of how much I hungered for attention, how much I hungered, you know, just power, being that guy, you know? When other people were in front and leading, I wanted to be up there and do it as well.
And so I had to work hard. It’s in a lot of, I wrote a book called, He’s Not Who You Think He Is about relationship with God and I, in that book, I write a lot about the transition I had to go through emotionally and spiritually to get to a place where I could be the kind of leader that was God focused instead of me focused, secure instead of insecure like King Saul was. And the reason I’m mentioning this is one of the best things that happened to me is I went to Washington DC and went to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. And one of the things we discussed when I was there was the importance of being willing to be unknown but to God.
You ask, where should a ministry start? If you’re gonna work with younger people and develop them, you have to start with the diminishing of your own pride and your own ego, and your own need to be at the center. The ability to sit in the pew as a Christian and let them speak and let them lead the ability to let them make decisions. And I’m terrible at this when I’m working on it. Let them make mistakes. You know, let them make mistakes. I spend a fair amount of time in confusion and in frustration as things don’t evolve the way that I would like to see them as outcomes. Not to get what I want, but to get success. But learning how to restrain all of that flesh so that other people can thrive.
So I think a lot of times for ministers, and I’ve been doing this for a long time, we want to be able to say, well, what are the levers I pull? And what are the buttons I push to get this outcome? Well, this may not be helpful for people who want that, because I think the real issue is can you get yourself into a spiritual spot where you’re like Jesus, and you can empower people as opposed to just have people, as James Jim Collins said in his book, A Genius with a Thousand Helpers, a lot of times minister, it’s easy to be a genius with a thousand helpers instead of being Jesus walking in the middle of a group that are all doing the things he’s trained them to do, where he is not needing to get the credit for it. So that’s number one. Number two is being aware that you’re gonna have just as powerful women leaders as you’re gonna have powerful men leaders and understand, hopefully with your wife, that you have to develop both of them. Here’s the real deal on the ground.
You talk about being on the ground. You’re not gonna have a lot of great young men leaders if you don’t have a lot of great young women leaders. You’re not gonna have a lot of great young women leaders you don’t have a lot of great young men leaders, because men and women like to date and get to know each other and be friends and enjoy each other. So you want to create a culture where young people know from the beginning, it doesn’t matter if I’m a man or a woman, I’m gonna get equal opportunities to lead, and I’m gonna get equal opportunities to get paid. I’m gonna be paid the same. It’s not gonna be these tier systems. And I think this generation is not gonna put up with that.
Amy:
That’s right.
Russ:
They’re not gonna be in a place where there is gonna be oppression of the women, or a diminishment of them as their, in their capabilities. And I’ll tell you, I deal with this all the time. I’ve had to tell more than a few guys, I go, you know, one thing you should consider is that your wife is more talented than you. And I play basketball growing up. And I’ll tell ’em, I think the thing when you know someone’s better than you, make sure you get them the ball, give them as many opportunities to score. My wife when she’s successful, I feel like that just demonstrates that I’m a smart guy. That I married smart. And the better she does, the better my life goes. And I think that that’s the second thing, is making sure you balance it and that you have a strong women presence. Develop those young ladies and bring ’em along.
The third thing I would say is you, I’ve said it already, you’ve got to emphasize their conviction about the Bible. Just having talented people who know how to speak and teach and talk, you can find those people all over. Like, I’m in Silicon Valley, they’re walking up and down the street every day. The uniqueness is this person who has an intimate relationship with God, the Holy Spirit’s working in their life. And Jesus is the person that they look at and say, I like Steve Jobs, but Jesus is, he’s a notch above, you know, I like Bill Gates, but Jesus is a notch above, or whatever their particular flavor might be. Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg, or whoever it might be.
Amy:
Well, that’s been super helpful. You know, we have about 20,000 people who listen to the podcast each week. Pastor Russ, anything that you would want to share with them before we end our time together?
Russ:
Yeah, two things. One, I think the ministry is challenging. And we’ve been at this a long time and I don’t want anybody to go, oh, they’ve got it all down. We don’t; we consider it an adventure, and we’re humbled every day. And we try to learn every day. And so don’t get discouraged and go, I can never do that. You met the producer of our technology work here. I got to know Nathan at 16 years old; he was the son of one of my friends. He didn’t wanna study the Bible or do anything with the Bible or do anything with God. Long story made short, he became a Christian, and now he’s the lead. He’s really the leader of our technology group.
Amy:
And he’s the reason we can hear your voice today. He got your microphone working.
Russ:
Yeah, exactly. And so start with one, one young man or one young woman who can become your friend. And if they’re your friend, they’re gonna learn from you and you’re gonna learn from them. He’s helped me a lot. He’s helped my sons. I have two special needs sons. He’s helped my sons. And so I think start with one, don’t get discouraged. Don’t worry about what anybody else is doing, including me. Stay in your lane and enjoy your life. And you’ll find that that person or those persons will help your family. They’ll help your marriage, and you’ll be happier and it’ll take pressure off you as they grow and mature. But I’m glad you’re doing what you’re doing. It’s exciting and encouraging to know that as ministers, we can listen to you and get some encouragement because I need it myself.
Amy:
Don’t we all. Thank you so much for what you’re doing at Bay Area Christian Church, and thanks for running the experiments that starts to produce Gen Z millennial leaders that you’re giving away ministry to. You’re throwing them the ball, you’re letting them make a few drops before they make a few baskets. And great counsel to just start with one. Sometimes it feels like this whole area can be overwhelming. So those final words to just start with one are great. Thanks so much for joining us.
Russ:
I loved it. Thank you.
Sean:
Well, thanks for joining us this week as we wrap up this series on healthy management within the church. And if you’re a church leader that’s facing some of these challenges that we’ve addressed during this series, we’d love to help. For the last 16 years, we’ve had the opportunity to work with over 700 churches, helping them to align their ministry plans and their team. If you’d like to explore what that would look like for your church, you can go to theunstuckgroup.com to learn more. Next week, we’re back with a brand new podcast series, so we’ll see you then.
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