Management Is Not a Dirty Word (Part 3)
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When it comes to numbers and metrics, churches sometimes say things like “our culture has never talked about numbers,” “we’re not a business,” “numbers are too impersonal”….
This topic seems to create anxiety in church staff members. But what if numbers actually weren’t the enemy? What if you could use metrics and value people…simultaneously? What if you could listen to the Holy Spirit and use data to support your vision and mission?
Good managers bring clarity to what the wins are for their team and for their team members. And metrics are tools for clarity.
In this episode, Sean and I discuss why there is pushback on using numbers and metrics, how to have a healthy approach to using measurement in ministry contexts, and practical tips for introducing healthy practices to your team.
Numbers show objective data about your ministry strategies and the effectiveness of your overall ministry playbook. [episode 418] #unstuckchurch Share on X Without clear metrics, team members often don't know where they're winning. [episode 418] #unstuckchurch Share on X Numbers aren’t the enemy. They’re tools for clarity. [episode 418] #unstuckchurch Share on X Good managers bring clarity to what the wins are for their team and for their team members. [episode 418] #unstuckchurch Share on X
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More Episodes In This Series
Management vs Leadership – Episode 416
Developing a Feedback Culture – Episode 417
How to Train Your Managers – Episode 419
Hiring & Managing Gen Z Leaders (with Russ Ewell) – Episode 420
Transcript
Sean:
I will bet there’s no shortage of things happening in your church. Kids ministry, students, groups, outreaches, special events—the list probably goes on. Keeping communication clear across it all can be exhausting. With ChurchCopy.ai, you can turn a simple event description into a complete communication package: emails, posts, text, and more—all working together to create awareness, build anticipation, and provide follow-up. And it’s all organized in one place in your church’s voice. You can get started for free at churchcopy.ai/unstuck. That’s churchcopy.ai/unstuck.
Well, welcome to the Unstuck Church Podcast. I’m Sean, and as always, I’m joined by Amy Anderson. And thank you for listening to our podcast. We definitely appreciate it. Amy, you’ll probably find this funny, but I was talking with a church leader recently and they said, you know, your voice from the podcast doesn’t really match what I thought your face would look like.
Amy:
Oh, that’s funny.
Sean:
What’s funny is I think I actually, I’ve been told I have a decent podcast voice, so I’m not sure what that says about my face.
Amy:
I usually get, oh, I’m so used to listening to you at, you know, 1.5 speed or two point speed that you sound so different.
Sean:
They can listen to us at whatever speed today. It’s gonna be a great conversation no matter what speed you’re at.
Amy:
That’s right.
Sean:
Because we’re continuing our series called management is not a dirty word, and today we’re focusing on something that seems to create anxiety in church staffs. And that’s numbers and metrics.
Amy:
Yes, it does. This always catches me by surprise. Again, I started my career in business and of course we knew our numbers. Then I worked at a church that was growing at 20% year over year and we certainly knew our numbers. So it always surprises me when churches aren’t looking at their numbers or they’re only looking at things like attendance and giving. And when I come across those churches, they usually say things like, “Well, our culture, we’ve just never talked about numbers,” or “We’re not a business,” or “Numbers are too impersonal.” And yet the leaders appreciate taking our vital signs assessment and really understanding better what their numbers are telling them.
Sean:
Absolutely. Alright, so let’s jump right into just kind of exploring why this is such a tricky thing for managers in ministry. What’s the tension that managers are trying to manage?
Amy:
Yeah. With numbers, I think there’s a few key reasons for this tension. Like I said last week, many church staffs, they’ve only really worked in ministry environments. They haven’t experienced healthy organizational or management practices that use numbers as tools rather than weapons. And by the way, I think some leaders avoid numbers because the numbers were weaponized at a previous church or organization. So now they just wanna scrap it and avoid that altogether.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
Second, I think there’s often this false dichotomy between being people focused or numbers focused as if you can’t be both simultaneously. And then lastly, some ministry leaders, I think they worry that measuring things will reduce people to statistics, which feels counter to the relational nature of church work. We know that we don’t have the same, you know, quote bottom line that a business does. And so I just think we can sometimes be resistant to things that feel like the standard mode of operation for a business.
Sean:
Yeah. I’ve gotten pushback on that many times, Amy. And interestingly, I think overall businesses seem to have better cracked the code on people leadership than many churches have. And I’ve noticed that some church leaders feel like measuring ministry outcomes is somehow showing like a lack of faith. So how do you think that mindset impacts church teams and their overall effectiveness?
Amy:
Oh, I think that impact is significant because like I said at the very beginning, your numbers, they’re always giving you feedback. They’re giving you objective data about your ministry strategies and the effectiveness of your overall ministry playbook. You know, too often I see teams relying purely on like gut feelings to evaluate success, which can lead to misalignment between what leaders think is happening and what actually is.
And I’ve shared this example before, but a few years ago I worked with a large multi-site church that most of our listeners would be familiar with. They brought us in to help them address their backdoor problem. Their gut told them that new people were coming because they saw them every weekend. They saw new people every weekend, but growth was soft. And so they assumed they had a backdoor problem where people were leaving. So during the assessment, we ran the numbers and guess what their primary issue was a front door problem. When we looked at their data, when we looked at their metrics, we saw that the number of new people added to their database had been declining significantly for the past six years. And I don’t know, can you just imagine all the resources and energy that would’ve been put into strategies that would close the back door while completely missing the work they needed to do on their front door strategies?
Sean:
Yeah. That’s a common misperception, and I think it’s easy to get a gut feeling when we talk to, you know, like three or four new people on the weekend that we have lots of new people connecting to the church. But in reality, a healthier front door for the church might be much larger than the number of people you could accidentally run into on a weekend. Right?
Amy:
Yeah. And that’s my point. Without clear metrics, team members often don’t know where they’re winning. They don’t know where they’re losing, they don’t know what to say yes to and what to say no to. And I say this all the time, but there are no bad ministries.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
But there are ministries that are more fruitful than others. And at the end of the day, we need to focus our ministry strategies on the ones that are producing the most fruit. We need to double down on the strategies that are moving the great commission forward the most effectively. And we need to prune, right? We need to prune even the ones that are working, but we gotta prune some off the plant altogether. And without effective pruning and just trying to do everything, that’s where churches lose momentum. That’s where they get stuck and that’s where they turn inward.
Sean:
Yeah, that’s right. And I’ll add to that, you know, when I work with churches that don’t have clear metrics that they’re tracking, I’ve seen a lot of ambiguity around expectations and performance specifically. People are keeping busy, but that seems like the win keeping busy. And we know being busy and being productive are not the same thing.
Amy:
Yeah. And that’s not too hard to do in ministry. Right? To be busy. I always liked how Tony Morgan said in his book, The Unstuck Church, he said “It’s possible to do the work of God without doing the work God has called you to do.”
Sean:
Yes.
Amy:
And I really relate to that. We can do all kinds of stuff in ministry, but how do we know we’re doing the right stuff, and metrics help with that.
Sean:
That’s right. The other truth is, from a big picture perspective, if we’re not consistently measuring things, it becomes nearly impossible to identify the early warning signs that something’s off track before it becomes a crisis. This goes back to our dashboard analogy, right? The dashboard of your car, it has several different warning lights to let you know that something’s going wrong and the lights aren’t telling you that your car’s dead right now, but that you’re headed for a breakdown and it’s time to get to the mechanic, right? Or if you’re like me, rather than go to the mechanic, maybe you watch a few YouTube videos and you try to do it yourself.
Amy:
That’s so you.
Sean:
Yes. It doesn’t always lead to great outcomes. So maybe that’s a metric too, but you know, our metrics within our church teams are exactly the same thing. They’re early indicators of coming unhealth.
Amy:
Yeah, it’s so true. And it goes back to what we said frequently on this podcast. Many pastors are surprised when they take our Unstuck Church Assessment and they find that they’re in the maintenance phase of the church life cycle because most of the time these churches are just at the beginning of that maintenance phase. So they still have some growth, although it’s slowed, giving is still up into the right, but they’re losing momentum. They’re baptizing, but it’s fewer people, complexities creeping in through over programming. And typically the vision at the church has gotten a little bit stale. So they don’t realize they’re dropping into maintenance. So in your analogy there, knowing your numbers helps you get ahead of any loss of momentum. The right measurements will alert you before you get deeper into the maintenance phase, which is hard to get out of.
Sean:
That’s true. So let’s talk solutions here. What’s a healthy approach to using numbers and measurement in a ministry context?
Amy:
I think the key is understanding that numbers aren’t the enemy. They’re actually tools for clarity. You know, this series, it’s all about good management and good managers bring clarity to what the wins are for their team and for their team members. And numbers, they simply help define some of those wins in objective terms.
For example, Sean, you and I served the Table Church in the Pittsburgh area this past year. And as a part of their staffing and structure engagement, we were working on the top level of the strategic alignment pyramid where we broke out their organizational goals for the next year, their mission goals for the year, and we broke ’em out by ministry and then by each leader. So for example, their overall in-person attendance goal, we looked at that for the next year, then we broke it out by each of their locations. And now each location pastor had clarity on what their attendance win was for the next year. For the next gen area, we broke out the in-person attendance goals by students and kids first by location and then down to the kids and student ministries, et cetera, et cetera. So when we were done, the lead pastor looked at the detailed goals for like the elementary leader at her location and said, I’d take that job. That was the leader in her coming out. Right? The work we did brought such clarity to the expectations of the role and leaders like to win. And they can’t win where there’s no aim or there’s no target.
Sean:
That is true. Absolutely. When we work with executive pastors, one of the things we tell them they cannot delegate is leading a healthy and high-performing team. And as part of that, they have the responsibility to define the wins and priorities for the team. And I remember Jordan from the Table Church on their team just really leaning in on that concept of bringing clarity to their wins.
Amy:
Oh yeah. In fact, Sean, he was at the XP cohort that launched last spring, and he has taken ownership of building out their full alignment pyramid so that the entire team can have better clarity on their wins and priorities. Which then leads me actually to my next point is that metrics should be tied directly to your mission and vision. In other words, goal setting isn’t something ministry leaders do on their own, right? It’s not something you go hole up and think this is what we’re gonna do this year.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
No, it’s an organizational process. So of course vision comes first, right? We go, where are we going over the next three to five years? What does God wanna do through our church in the next three to five years? What bold moves will we make? We have to have a picture of our desired future before we start setting goals.
After that, then we get our annual goal setting process moving. And your annual goals should be set by the senior leadership team and they should be a one year expression of goals that connect to that vision that you have for your church. And assuming you value both reaching new people and discipling them, these goals should include both reaching new people metrics and metrics around discipleship or spiritual formation. Because the best metrics don’t just measure activity like how many programs we run, but rather they should measure impact and the measure of how those programs are changing lives.
So, and then once organizationally, once you have these larger goals set, then those get cascaded down to ministry teams and ministry leaders. And of course you can have some negotiation in there, right? We think you can grow your ministry by 400 people and they might go, I think we can grow it by 500, or I think it’s more like three 50, right? So there’s some negotiation, but once you land those numbers down at a ministry level and then at person level, that’s when everyone understands, man, this is how my work connects to the bigger picture of what we’re doing here.
So it’s a huge win. Now, these goals, these targets, everything I’ve been talking about so far are what we call lag measurements. You know, looking at the metrics throughout the year that’s gonna inform you as to how you’re doing in attaining the goal. And while those are important measures and they have a purpose, they aren’t the only measures I think, Sean, that we should be focused on. Because after all, there’s really nothing we can do to influence lag measures once we get ’em. Right?
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
Once we look at our numbers from the weekend, it just is what it is. They tell us if we hit a goal or not. But I just wanna do a quick shout out for lead measures because lead measures on the other hand are different. And I’m just gonna quote from Four Disciplines of Execution. Great book by the way. The author said, while a lag measure tells you if you achieve the goal, a lead measure tells you if you are likely to achieve the goal. So lead measures track the critical activities that drive or lead to the lag measure. They predict success of the lag measure and are influenced directly by the team.
So you and I were talking about this on our webinar a few months ago, but Four DX, Four Disciplines of Execution had a couple examples. They said for car reliability, right? You can’t control how often your car breaks down. That’s a lag measure. It broke down four times last year. Right? But you can control how often you receive routine maintenance. That’s a lead measure. Golf, right? Your golf score is a lag measure. A lead measure would be things like, how much time am I gonna spend on the driving range or take lessons to improve the game? So those are just examples, lead measures, they help you make progress towards the goal. They represent the activity that you have control over that should influence your ultimate goal.
Sean:
That’s good. So thinking about the ministry context, what are some examples of lead measures that a ministry leader might be looking at?
Amy:
Yeah. And I kind of like, I probably flip back and forth. Sometimes I call ’em lead activities and sometimes lead measures. But these are some examples of lead activities that you can put numbers to. So if you’re a lead pastor, your lead activity could be something like the number of hours I’m gonna dedicate to message research and writing every week, right? If you do that, you are probably gonna have a better quality message, which is gonna drive a better weekend, which is gonna drive attendance up, right? So you predetermine, this is how much time I’m gonna spend. That’s my lead activity so that we can hit that lag goal.
If you’re a ministry leader, the number of new people that you plan on connecting with on a weekend, or if you’re trying to engage more volunteer leaders into your ministry, this is the number of coffees I’m gonna have each week to meet with existing volunteers to invite them into a bigger role. And hopefully by doing those things, like I’m gonna meet 10 new people a weekend, or I’m gonna have one coffee a week to invite someone into a higher level of leadership role. It’s just more likely at the end of that run, you’re gonna have more volunteers. You’re gonna have more volunteer leaders engaged in your ministry.
If you’re a creative director or a weekend leader, you might predetermine, this is the number of purple cow remarkable experiences our team’s going to create each quarter or every year. And again, by putting that down in writing, and this is how I’m gonna spend my time, it’s probably gonna relate in a better weekend. And again, more attendance. So the key here is to be specific. Naming the number of hours or fill in the blank that you’re gonna dedicate to things like your message writing process is far more specific than saying, I need more time to work on my message. Right? This discipline of thinking through how you’re gonna spend your time will really inform your priorities and it’ll put you on a much better path to achieve the goals that you’ve set for yourself and the team.
Sean:
Yeah. That’s really good. Amy, maybe you can share some practical tips for our ministry leaders that are listening who want to kind of introduce healthy measurement practices for their teams.
Amy:
Yeah, absolutely. If this is new to your team, I think it all starts by explaining the why behind the measurements. And here’s what paying attention to your metrics does. Maybe there’s a nugget in here for you. Number one, it lets you know if you’re on mission, it answers the question, are we reaching new people? Are we helping people take steps to look more like Jesus? Is our church healthy or are we losing momentum? So, you know, linking it to that mission. The other thing metrics do, it makes you good stewards really of what God has entrusted to your church. Like are we investing in the ministries that are producing life or are we wasting resources by holding onto old traditions or ministries that aren’t producing fruit? Again, the metrics are gonna give you better information to make better decisions, which leads me to my next one. It helps you make wise decisions. I think the lead pastor does have some great gut instincts, but good metrics can support that gut feel.
Sean:
That’s right.
Amy:
And good metrics can also redirect your thinking like the church I mentioned earlier, if your gut is off. Lastly the why behind metrics. It’ll just align the team around common goals and provide clarity on where they need to focus. It’ll help the team be focused and productive instead of, like you said earlier, kind of scattered and busy. So whatever your why is, those are some examples of what my why would be if I was a lead pastor. But you need to start with a why with people.
Second, and again, if this is a new muscle for your team, consider starting small. You know, one church I’m working with now, they’re a large church over 3000. And they just have never really worked with numbers. And so they’ve decided to just focus on increasing the number of volunteer leaders this year with their staff team. Okay? It’s their WIG, their wildly important goal. They’re gonna roll out one metric to get the whole team focused on how can we give away some more ministry this year. So it’s the only metric that the team’s gonna focus on and yet the senior leadership team will be watching more metrics than that, but they just didn’t wanna dump a whole suite of measurements on their team when they’re just trying to shift the culture. And the third thing then real practical is just don’t make it too hard when you start out. You need to measure things that you’re actually able to measure. In other words, your metrics, they should be easy to collect and understand. So if you can’t access the data you need, you need to spend some time figuring out how to leverage your database before you do a large scale kind of numbers rollout.
Sean:
Alright Amy, so let’s shift into the practical side. What are some of the first steps that they can take if they wanna shift their teams’ perspective on measurement?
Amy:
Yeah. Here’s a couple tangible next steps. First, I would just have an honest conversation with your team about where things feel unclear and where you’re relying solely on your gut feelings. Right? As a leadership team, I encourage you work together to identify what winning looks like for your church. Start the muscle of defining those overarching organizational goals. And for some churches that’s the starting point. Develop your big dashboard and then start tracking data. And if you don’t know what to measure, take our Vital Signs assessment. It gives you a great example of what reach and discipleship metrics you should be tracking. And even so Sean, I wanna make sure, I wanna give our listeners today a code at the end of the podcast where they can access the Vital Signs assessment for free. We value it that much. We wanna get it into your hands.
If you’re a church that’s already developed the muscle for the big dashboard, then I encourage you, your next step is just to take it to the next level and break it down by ministry areas. Then start tracking and help your teams know if they’re on target or off target. And by the way, if they’re on target, great. Keep doing what you’re doing. If they’re off target, then work on the ministry and help them, model for them. How do we modify our approach? How do we adapt our ministry strategy? If we just can’t get that thing to be growing where we really trusted God, it would be by the end of the year. And if you’ve already done both of those things, you’ve got organizational goals, you’ve broken ’em down by ministry, then I would start the process of identifying your lead measures or those lead activities with your ministry leaders. And I would do it as a team, but just talk through, have them think through how do we need to spend our time this year if these are the goals that we want to achieve? So bottom line, just start somewhere and then get better. Right?
Sean:
That’s good.
Amy:
Start somewhere and get better. Keep learning.
Sean:
Yep. Yeah. What about when team members push back on measurement? How can leaders address the resistance effectively?
Amy:
Yeah. This is where coaching skills really matter. First just be sure to listen to them and understand their concerns. Honestly, there might be legitimate fears based on past experiences. I’ve heard just some nightmare stories about, again, how numbers have been weaponized. Instead of being things that bring clarity, it brings punishment. So you might have some war wounds on your team and ask questions like, how do we know if things are working right now? You’re like, what happens when things get unhealthy and we don’t notice until it’s too late? In other words, help play the movie forward if we don’t pay attention to these things. Back to your car analogy, right? What if you had black tape all over your dashboard? Is that gonna help your car run better? No. You’re gonna be at a deficit of information about what things you need to be working on.
Sean:
Right.
Amy:
And then just remind them that without some kind of score, we’re really just relying on subjective opinions, which actually can be less fair and more anxiety producing. And lastly, if there’s just continued resistance, I think it’s, I’m gonna pull out the Bible, but I think it’s important to remember that Jesus used numbers, he used measurements and the results tied to those measurements to make spiritual truths clear. So measuring doesn’t replace faith. I think you said that at the beginning. Measuring things does not replace faith. It actually reveals God’s faithfulness. You can see where God’s working when we look at our numbers.
Sean:
That’s a good thought. Love that. Alright, well this has been a really good conversation. Before we wrap up, any final thoughts from you?
Amy:
Yeah. I just remind leaders that numbers are servants, not masters. When used properly, metrics create freedom by providing clarity. They help us celebrate wins objectively and identify issues early. The goal is not to become corporate. It’s to steward well the people and resources that God’s entrusted us with. And great measurement practices actually free us up to be more relational, not less relational because they remove ambiguity and they help people focus and help teams thrive. So healthy metrics, man, they just create cultures where people know what’s expected and can celebrate real progress.
Sean:
That’s good. Well thanks Amy for all the insights today. Like Amy said, this is so important that we wanna offer our listeners a free month of access to our Unstuck Resource Hub, where you can take the Vital Signs assessment and look at some of your metrics and data. So you want to go to theunstuckgroup.com/learninghub, theunstuckgroup.com/learninghub to sign up and use the code vitalsigns. So just type into the coupon code there: vitalsigns. And then to all of our listeners, join us next week for the final episode. I’m kind of sad it’s ending, Amy, Management.
Amy:
I know. It was fun.
Sean:
Management Is Not a Dirty Word series where we’ll discuss how to train your managers. So I know a lot of senior pastors and executive pastors are leaning into that. And as always, at the Unstuck Group, we’re here to help your church thrive. So if we can do anything to serve you, visit us at theunstuckgroup.com to learn more about our resources and consulting services. We’ll see you next week.
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